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Fedora 20 released

docs.fedoraproject.org

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Re: Fedora 20 released

#31

Post by andor »

Sanddancer wrote: post #6

Seeing the removal of syslogd, getting more than a bit grumpy here at the continuing direction Redhat is dragging the Linux world. Journald may serve the basic user well, it can't do half the stuff a good syslogd configuration can do; it can't pipe messages to other processes, it can't send messages to remote servers, it can't send messages to multiple places. If redhat had put in services to let journald do the thin…

It's not a direct replacement. Journald does stuff that syslog can't do, but it doesn't reimplement everything. Instead, you can pipe to syslog if you want syslog features.

- Journald logs the whole boot process

- Journald can make sure that an item really came from some process. It also tries to seal the journal so that it can't be tempered with.

- It's built into the other systemd tools. For example, when you notice a daemon doesn't start through systemctl, it'll show you the error messages in systemctl status.

Re: Fedora 20 released

#32

Post by CraigJPerry »

Sanddancer wrote: post #19
DrJokepu wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you need syslogd, isn’t it as simple as yum install syslogd and then you’re sorted?

I can, however, again, it's a pretty poor direction that only serves to fragment systems. Many of the complaints that drove the creation of journald could have been better solved through a better default syslogd configuration. Additionally, the journald solution for needs such as remote logging or logging to multiple locations means that you now need to pipe through a process that has a near sole job of piping to ano…

I don't think the fragmentation claim stands up to scrutiny.

It's so far been adopted by redhat, suse, arch, coreos and with some consideration by debian. The only big name not thinking about it is Ubuntu.

I don't think that many of the journald drivers could have been solved by better syslogd configuration, for example journald cryptographically signs each log entry. Even if you get root on my box, you can't edit an entry without me knowing. That's not possible in any meaningful way with syslog.

I don't share the view of a hack, the speed improvements of introducing journald have been tremendous and usability is mostly better.

For example, the number 1 thing done with syslog output is probably either grep it, so journald improves on this:

    journalctl _COMM=sshd --since yesterday --until "08:30"
    OR
    journalctl /usr/sbin/sshd --since yesterday --until "08:30"
Or tail it

    journalctl -F
The places i don't like the user interface are around starting and stopping services. However the old interfaces work fine for now.

Re: Fedora 20 released

#33

Post by hdevalence »

andor wrote: post #31
Sanddancer wrote: post #6

Seeing the removal of syslogd, getting more than a bit grumpy here at the continuing direction Redhat is dragging the Linux world. Journald may serve the basic user well, it can't do half the stuff a good syslogd configuration can do; it can't pipe messages to other processes, it can't send messages to remote servers, it can't send messages to multiple places. If redhat had put in services to let journald do the thin…

It's not a direct replacement. Journald does stuff that syslog can't do, but it doesn't reimplement everything. Instead, you can pipe to syslog if you want syslog features. - Journald logs the whole boot process - Journald can make sure that an item really came from some process. It also tries to seal the journal so that it can't be tempered with. - It's built into the other systemd tools. For example, when you notic…

Note that the second point is quite important -- it provides a rolling hash of the journal contents that you can send to another machine, so that in the event of a break-in, you can detect any tampering with the syslogs. As I recall, this was inspired by the break-in to the kernel.org servers, where the attacker tampered with the log files. That would be impossible with journald.

Re: Fedora 20 released

#35

Post by Sanddancer »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #32
Sanddancer wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can, however, again, it's a pretty poor direction that only serves to fragment systems. Many of the complaints that drove the creation of journald could have been better solved through a better default syslogd configuration. Additionally, the journald solution for needs such as remote logging or logging to multiple locations means that you now need to pipe through a process that has a near sole job of piping to ano…

I don't think the fragmentation claim stands up to scrutiny. It's so far been adopted by redhat, suse, arch, coreos and with some consideration by debian. The only big name not thinking about it is Ubuntu. I don't think that many of the journald drivers could have been solved by better syslogd configuration, for example journald cryptographically signs each log entry. Even if you get root on my box, you can't edit an…

Think bigger than Linux. Think those with freebsd boxes, netbsd boxes, solaris boxes, etc. They're all very much relevant, but left out in the cold by deliberate decisions of the systemd folks to eschew compatibility. Functionality-wise, journald has no way of acting on the messages it receives. With syslogd, it's fairly trivial to write a script that will send a nagios alert every time a service is restarted, for example. How does one do that with journald?

Re: Fedora 20 released

#36

Post by gary4gar »

Ruby Devs, Take note, Fedora 20 has ruby 2 & rails 4 available. to get started with rails, all you need to do is:

   yum install rubygem-rails
and Bam, it will install latest ruby, rails & other dependencies. That's not all, they have more than 2thousand ruby related packages(all recent versions).

Fedora seems to have one of best ruby support. Way to go!

https://apps.fedoraproject.org/packages/s/ruby

Re: Fedora 20 released

#37

Post by dschiptsov »

''syslog is no longer included in default installations. journald logging serves most use cases as well as, or better than, syslogd.''

I think it has lots in common with this:

"Fedora 20 includes the WildFly 8 Application Server, formerly known as the JBoss Application Server, a very popular Java EE platform. WildFly is a very fast, modular and lightweight server."

keep producing more and more bloatware, without any other reasons than "because we have done it".

I think that blindly allowing freedesktop guys to mess up all the traditional Unix startup and now logging tools with some MS-inspired crap for a very questionable reasons is quite a step back.

It is also an example of an over-engineering bias (which comes from OO-only approach) - building up an unnecessary complexity. syslog and shell script based startup procedure are good-enough (and still good enough for sane systems such as BSDs or Plan9), while those who need a specialized logging (or startup) service could create it for themselves, as so many do.

Changing reasonable defaults just because someone is cocksure that we need more xxxxctl and xxxxx-bridge instead of plain old text-files looks like ignorant over-confidence. Those who cannot live without journald could install it manually, why to cause a headache to the rest of us.

I do remember that commercial variant of Suse Linux have tried "an innovative approach" to what a Linux server is. They introduced a set of some in-house made utilities (inspired by Netware I suppose) with non-intuitive logic and millions of command line options no one knows (which cannot be googled). Why, it is a way to success, now you could teach courses, do certification, issue meaningless titles, etc. Thank god its dead. ESX servers, btw, were (or still are) even bigger mess.

I doubt that Fedora is going this way, but the signs are bad.)

Re: Fedora 20 released

#38

Post by CraigJPerry »

dschiptsov wrote: post #37

''syslog is no longer included in default installations. journald logging serves most use cases as well as, or better than, syslogd.'' I think it has lots in common with this: "Fedora 20 includes the WildFly 8 Application Server, formerly known as the JBoss Application Server, a very popular Java EE platform. WildFly is a very fast, modular and lightweight server." keep producing more and more bloatware, without any…

1. you don't have to upgrade 2. fork it and "fix" it

If you opt for #2 submit it here.

Re: Fedora 20 released

#39

Post by veeti »

dschiptsov wrote: post #37

''syslog is no longer included in default installations. journald logging serves most use cases as well as, or better than, syslogd.'' I think it has lots in common with this: "Fedora 20 includes the WildFly 8 Application Server, formerly known as the JBoss Application Server, a very popular Java EE platform. WildFly is a very fast, modular and lightweight server." keep producing more and more bloatware, without any…

What the fuck are you going on about? WildFly is now included as an _available package for install in the repositories_. This is why it is in the release notes.

This is like complaining that any disto is "bloatware" because their repositories include software that you happen to dislike and think is "bloat". $distro is bloated because KDE/GNOME/whatever is an option, right?

Get a grip.

Re: Fedora 20 released

#40

Post by dschiptsov »

veeti wrote: post #39
dschiptsov wrote: post #37

''syslog is no longer included in default installations. journald logging serves most use cases as well as, or better than, syslogd.'' I think it has lots in common with this: "Fedora 20 includes the WildFly 8 Application Server, formerly known as the JBoss Application Server, a very popular Java EE platform. WildFly is a very fast, modular and lightweight server." keep producing more and more bloatware, without any…

What the fuck are you going on about? WildFly is now included as an _available package for install in the repositories_. This is why it is in the release notes. This is like complaining that any disto is "bloatware" because their repositories include software that you happen to dislike and think is "bloat". $distro is bloated because KDE/GNOME/whatever is an option, right? Get a grip.

Please, let's not discuss Java EE.)
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