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Edward Snowden leaks: NSA 'debates' amnesty

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Edward Snowden leaks: NSA 'debates' amnesty

#31

Post by ds9 »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #21
wil421 wrote: post #12

This is so stupid. Snowden hasnt leaked documents since he initially gave it to the first few reporters. Those reporters have stated from the beginning it was in their hands now to determine what is reported to the public. > This is analogous to a hostage taker taking 50 people hostage, shooting 10, and then say, 'if you give me full amnesty, I'll let the other 40 go'. What do you do? That is absolutely absurd. No li…

What exactly determine's the press's release schedule? Ratings? Milking? Ad conversation stats? No idea why everything hasn't been released yet. It also isn't bulk data like the wikileaks fiasco. Looks like NSA program specs. Redaction can't be taking this long. Funny how Snowden is now caught between a dictator in Russia and the Western for-profit press. Probably not a good place to be. I imagine he's smart enough t…

The slow release schedule keeps the info in the news throughout the series. If it were dumped all at once, it would be "forgotten" by mainstream media by the time writers would have time to sort thru it.

Re: Edward Snowden leaks: NSA 'debates' amnesty

#32

Post by fit2rule »

kordless wrote: post #30

> "This is analogous to a hostage taker taking 50 people hostage, shooting 10, and then say, 'if you give me full amnesty, I'll let the other 40 go'." No. This is analogous to YOU taking 50 people hostage, shooting 10 of them, and then someone coming to you and telling you to stop shooting people or they are going to tell on you if you don't release the rest of the hostages. > What do you do? You let your hostages go…

Damn straight!

NEVER forget that people like Alexander are professional murderers, liars, and plain: THUGS. They have been in the business of oppressing their fellow human beings for decades.

They are masters at owning the battlefield - which means they will frame their argument in the very substance of the TRUTH, twisting it to suit their intended purpose - in this case, to gain lost ground in the "honor" and "righteousness" department - two vile substances which propel many a killing, murdering, destruction machine.

Turn the table back on Alexander, always. Whenever he is given credence as the victor in the moral argument, remind the victim of his propaganda that they are responsible for the continued actions of this government if they agree with its statement, its message, and its positions on its crimes against humanity.

Until Americans realize they ARE responsible for the machine they have created, and under whose labour they live their very protected lives, we will get no true change.

Re: Edward Snowden leaks: NSA 'debates' amnesty

#33

Post by ds9 »

wil421 wrote: post #12

This is so stupid. Snowden hasnt leaked documents since he initially gave it to the first few reporters. Those reporters have stated from the beginning it was in their hands now to determine what is reported to the public. > This is analogous to a hostage taker taking 50 people hostage, shooting 10, and then say, 'if you give me full amnesty, I'll let the other 40 go'. What do you do? That is absolutely absurd. No li…

NSA probably knows the trove may include certain info that would be super-embarrasing for the US government, and Snowden or Greenwald allusions to "even bigger" (or similar expressions) items support this possibility.

Yet undoubtedly the NSA, DOJ and other state elements, despite how we like to snark at the technical ignorance of politicians, must realize it is going to be practically impossible to suppress all the possible sources of this info getting out. And Snowden of course must be well aware that the pseudo-offer is very unlikely to be sincere, loophole-free or workable in practice.

Thus the real question is, why would NSA make such a futile gesture? It could hardly be intended at face value.

Re: Edward Snowden leaks: NSA 'debates' amnesty

#34

Post by eli »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #21
wil421 wrote: post #12

This is so stupid. Snowden hasnt leaked documents since he initially gave it to the first few reporters. Those reporters have stated from the beginning it was in their hands now to determine what is reported to the public. > This is analogous to a hostage taker taking 50 people hostage, shooting 10, and then say, 'if you give me full amnesty, I'll let the other 40 go'. What do you do? That is absolutely absurd. No li…

What exactly determine's the press's release schedule? Ratings? Milking? Ad conversation stats? No idea why everything hasn't been released yet. It also isn't bulk data like the wikileaks fiasco. Looks like NSA program specs. Redaction can't be taking this long. Funny how Snowden is now caught between a dictator in Russia and the Western for-profit press. Probably not a good place to be. I imagine he's smart enough t…

I would imagine it takes a huge amount of work to properly report these stories. It takes time authenticate the documents (you can't just assume everything you get is accurate because it supposedly came from Snowden), you have to decipher all the intelligence jargon and put the story in context. You have to make sure you don't accidentally do something that puts American intelligence people in harm's way (my understanding is Snowden's insurance file includes lists of names and biographical details of agents.)

Re: Edward Snowden leaks: NSA 'debates' amnesty

#35

Post by Havoc »

Shivetya wrote: post #19
Havoc wrote: post #15

This just comes across as weak/desperate on the NSA's side. If I were him I'd tell the US to shove it. They made him intentionally stateless and pressured other nations to make seeking asylum difficult - that to me is a low blow when it comes to treating whistle-blowers - even by US standards.

This is nothing more than a trial balloon floated by someone in the administration. They want to gauge public opinion. Frankly it would be stupid to grant him amnesty because it will pretty much open the door to copy cats. They can simply wait him out, Russia only does this when it has value on the international stage, its quite evident Putin has little respect for the President.

>Frankly it would be stupid to grant him amnesty

Not so sure. Remember the article 2/3 days back about how the NSA has no real idea exactly what kind of info he has. This move strikes me as a shallow attempt at damage control. Or more accurately an NSA person thinking "lets rather not find out how deep this goes".

Regarding Putin - yes no doubt its a pure PR exercise but I'm thankful that there is some kind of force to balance it in this case. As I said, a nation using citizenship & asylum interference to specifically target one person is deeply immoral in my books. If Putin is the one calling them out on that sht then so be it.

Re: Edward Snowden leaks: NSA 'debates' amnesty

#36

Post by bmelton »

spodek wrote: post #18

> The US National Security Agency is considering offering an amnesty to fugitive intelligence contractor Edward Snowden if he agrees to stop leaking secret documents, an NSA official says. That means as bad for the NSA as giving amnesty would be, they consider remaining documents worse . That means however bad you've found the revelations so far, expect worse to come. As for Snowden, I presume he's smart enough to re…

Or, alternatively, it means that the offer of amnesty is a lie, and just being posed as an attempt to capture Snowden and the documents.

That's not even untenable at this point either -- he's just enough outside of the public eye that it would be easy to manufacture another crime that he's also guilty of for which he could be separately arrested. Capture him during the exchange, wait a couple of weeks, then announce that he was arrested on some completely unrelated matter for which he will be tried and sentenced, secretly, in a tribunal, behind closed doors.

It's not like we haven't established clear precedent.

This isn't even the most pessimistic of equally plausible scenarios -- we could just opt to kill him.

Re: Edward Snowden leaks: NSA 'debates' amnesty

#37

Post by smtddr »

spodek wrote: post #18

> The US National Security Agency is considering offering an amnesty to fugitive intelligence contractor Edward Snowden if he agrees to stop leaking secret documents, an NSA official says. That means as bad for the NSA as giving amnesty would be, they consider remaining documents worse . That means however bad you've found the revelations so far, expect worse to come. As for Snowden, I presume he's smart enough to re…

Agreed. USAgov doesn't negotiate with terrorists and in their mind that's what E.Snowden is. There's no turning back for him; he better just keep on leaking and keep on running forever. He can't return to the life he once had. If USAgov gets their hands on him... checkmate.

Re: Edward Snowden leaks: NSA 'debates' amnesty

#38

Post by freerobby »

sneak wrote: post #27
dopamean wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the NSA offer amnesty anyway? Is it not the Justice Department that would bring charges in this situation? It's like the family of a murder victim offering amnesty to the murderer... it's not really up to them.

By that logic, James Clapper would be charged for lying to congress by now. "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

What makes you think the Justice Department wants to go after Clapper?

Re: Edward Snowden leaks: NSA 'debates' amnesty

#39

Post by kbenson »

mattgibson wrote: post #29

That's a pretty extreme step. Given that there have been stories saying that the NSA have not been able to work out exactly what he took from them, this implies that they are afraid of what he has yet to reveal. We know that he deliberately didn't release material that was specifically going to endanger individuals or operations and that newspapers have been even more careful to only reveal generalities. This suggest…

I imagine the NSA also looks quite extensively at worst case scenarios. Without knowledge of what he has, assuming he has some fairly damaging material he has not seem disposed towards revealing (ignoring the even possibility he has even more damning material he is willing to release), they still have to worry about future changes in his reasoning on what's acceptable to release, and third parties without such compunctions (or evenmies) getting access to the data in some manner.

With that in mind, the best manner to recover the data completely and securely may be to get him back on their side.

Re: Edward Snowden leaks: NSA 'debates' amnesty

#40

Post by dragonwriter »

spodek wrote: post #18

> The US National Security Agency is considering offering an amnesty to fugitive intelligence contractor Edward Snowden if he agrees to stop leaking secret documents, an NSA official says. That means as bad for the NSA as giving amnesty would be, they consider remaining documents worse . That means however bad you've found the revelations so far, expect worse to come. As for Snowden, I presume he's smart enough to re…

> That means as bad for the NSA as giving amnesty would be, they consider remaining documents worse.

Well, it would mean that, if it were serious. Snowden has already said that he has transferred control of all the documents to journalists and no longer has any control of them, and the whole amnesty spiel was predicated on him having control of the documents and being able to demonstrate that it was impossible for any more of them to escape.

It's not really a statement of intent to provide amnesty, its an attempt to:

1. Reiterate the claim that Snowden has compromised the "keys to the kingdom" when it comes to US national security,

2. Provide a justification for the continued hard line against Snowden based around the need to protect those supposed vital-to-national-security secrets that have not been revealed, rather than retribution for the clear abuses that have been revealed.

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