Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Capitalist Science

arxiv.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 82 posts

Re: Capitalist Science

#31

Post by ArbitraryLimits »

mcv wrote: post #11

But this "capitalist science" has already existed for ages, hasn't it? Plenty of companies do science, monopolize the results through patents, and exploit them for private profit. That's capitalist science. > The economic structure of basic science is currently socialist, funded by the public at large through taxes for the benefit of the public at large. Yes, but increasingly less so. The public may fund it, but too…

>> The economic structure of basic science is currently socialist,

> Yes, but increasingly less so.

IMO opinion the real problem isn't that basic science is becoming less publicly available as much as it's becoming less basic, and really less science also.

If "capitalist science" meaning holding scientists to the same production quotas that Frederick Taylor gave steel workers, then above and beyond the problems seen with steel workers, there's the additional problem that bad science drives out good since it's easier to produce.

Re: Capitalist Science

#32

Post by jlcx »

"Basic science is currently a socialist enterprise, funded by the taxpayer, with the results available to society at large."

One current problem is that this is that the results are not always available to society at large; I've seen a lot of stories on HN about attempts to change that.

"Since the benefits of scientific advances are consumed by everyone, no individual has a strong financial incentive to invest in basic research."

Related to this point, patent law causes companies to focus more on efforts that lead to patentable inventions, and therefore away from basic science, which is unpatentable.

Re: Capitalist Science

#33

Post by samolang »

grimtrigger wrote: post #23
[deleted] wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Property rights are a purely governmental construct. But without them, capitalism doesn't work. Not sure why intellectual property is considered any different.

Property rights are for protecting scarce resources. Intellectual property is not a scarce resource.

Re: Capitalist Science

#34

Post by dagw »

veganarchocap wrote: post #20

I'd argue that our scientific process and development would improve exponentially as result of replacing the old Socialist, state funded model with a voluntary consumer model. Private enterprise is already financing ambitious projects once sought only by state provisions on their own merit. Such as Virgin Galactic. I think if innovation in these fields were brought into the responsibility of private investment, inves…

Private enterprise is already financing ambitious projects once sought only by state provisions on their own merit. Such as Virgin Galactic

I'd like to open by saying that I have nothing but respect for Virgin Galactic. I still get chills thinking back on watching the SpaceShipOne flight. I also largely agree with your stance.

That being said the argument could be made that all Virgin Galactic is doing is taking all the hard work and science done by the old state funded model and trying to repackage it in a simple cheaper form for "mass marker" consumption. That's not Science, that's business and engineering. And no one would disagree with that fact that Capitalism is great at business and engineering.

Capitalism rocks at taking concepts out of obscure theoretical journals and putting them in a form that affect our daily lives (often for the better), no argument there. I'm somewhat less convinced that capitalism rocks at getting those concepts into those obscure theoretical journals in the first place.

Re: Capitalist Science

#35

Post by teddyh »

grimtrigger wrote: post #23
[deleted] wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Property rights are a purely governmental construct. But without them, capitalism doesn't work. Not sure why intellectual property is considered any different.

The usual argument is that they are, in economic terms, non-rivalrous and non-scarce.

Re: Capitalist Science

#36

Post by xioxox »

veganarchocap wrote: post #29
acqq wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the big and basic scientific projects currently funded would never be funded by private investors.

Only because the state monopolises such projects through taxation, regulation, licensing laws etc. There are already examples of private investment achieving in these areas despite all of the above. I think private enterprise will eventually take over, but it will be a long battle.

Would private enterprise really fund fundamental research, such as particle physics at CERN or astronomy? These things are important for our understanding of the nature and the universe, but the economic return is extremely hard to predict, although sometimes very large. Who would have thought that something like the world wide web would originate from particle physics? The returns from fundamental research can be several decades later.

Re: Capitalist Science

#37

Post by alex_young »

[deleted] wrote: post #19
mcv wrote: post #11

But this "capitalist science" has already existed for ages, hasn't it? Plenty of companies do science, monopolize the results through patents, and exploit them for private profit. That's capitalist science. > The economic structure of basic science is currently socialist, funded by the public at large through taxes for the benefit of the public at large. Yes, but increasingly less so. The public may fund it, but too…

[deleted]

Patents are a legal construct designed by and for corporations for their benefit. To argue that they are somehow not capitalist is somewhat disingenuous isn't it?

It always bothers me when I see absolutist statements such as this one. Are you claiming that there's some plausible 'pure-capitalism' existent outside of all laws?

Isn't the basis of capitalism itself wholly dependent on the governmental construct called currency? What about policing and a court system? It's hard to imagine anything approximating the modern idea of trade without those functions.

When you boil things down, 'government' is just a set of rules we all agree to. Capitalism is a set of rules we agree to in the area of trade. These are inexorably linked ideas.

Re: Capitalist Science

#38

Post by brazzy »

veganarchocap wrote: post #20

I'd argue that our scientific process and development would improve exponentially as result of replacing the old Socialist, state funded model with a voluntary consumer model. Private enterprise is already financing ambitious projects once sought only by state provisions on their own merit. Such as Virgin Galactic. I think if innovation in these fields were brought into the responsibility of private investment, inves…

> I'd argue that our scientific process and development would improve exponentially as result of replacing the old Socialist, state funded model with a voluntary consumer model.

I'd argue the exact oppsite: that the current private research work done especially in the field of medicine would yield vastly more benefit for lower costs if it were completely replaced by state funded research.

Re: Capitalist Science

#40

Post by [deleted] »

ronaldx wrote: post #16

Wow, I couldn't disagree with this premise more. I believe the exact opposite. Capitalist science already happens - that's how capitalism works. If something has the potential to be directly turned into profit, people create businesses around that. Governments professing to be capitalist shouldn't interfere with that process. Academic science ought not to be capitalist. Governments should fund science that benefits s…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN