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Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

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Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#31

Post by dsr_ »

peterdundi wrote: post #10
drcube wrote: post #7

I've been saying this for years now. Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions without the fate of crushing poverty over their heads. Give them the financial breathing room to learn a new skill, start a business, or simply find a better job than the one they currently have. Basically, the freedom to take risks. Rich people have been telling us for decades that is what they bring to the table. Risk.…

"Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions" Why should they be free to make their own decision about how they spend MY money?

To begin with, we're talking about tax money here. It's not your money any more. It was your money. Then you gave it to the government.

[If it makes you feel better to say that the government forced you to do that, fine. If you want to talk about monopolies of violence, fine. But there's no way you can reasonably consider it your money once it's left your bank account, any more than money you paid to Amazon is still your money.]

So, if the government is going to give money to people who are in need, would you prefer it to be spent according to a top-down command economy, Soviet-style, or according to a market economy with maximum information at the edges?

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#32

Post by moocowduckquack »

cobrausn wrote: post #11
drcube wrote: post #7

I've been saying this for years now. Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions without the fate of crushing poverty over their heads. Give them the financial breathing room to learn a new skill, start a business, or simply find a better job than the one they currently have. Basically, the freedom to take risks. Rich people have been telling us for decades that is what they bring to the table. Risk.…

And what happens when it decreases the number of people who choose to get an education to seek greater opportunities? After all, the thought of perpetual poverty is a huge motivator. With that gone? Won't we see a higher divide between skilled and unskilled, rich and poor? I'm a bit skeptical about this supposed panacea that cures crime, disease, and teen pregnancy, all in one fell swoop.

And what happens when it decreases the number of people who choose to get an education to seek greater opportunities?

It might free up the courses for those who are passionate about the subject matter instead.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#33

Post by tghw »

cobrausn wrote: post #11
drcube wrote: post #7

I've been saying this for years now. Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions without the fate of crushing poverty over their heads. Give them the financial breathing room to learn a new skill, start a business, or simply find a better job than the one they currently have. Basically, the freedom to take risks. Rich people have been telling us for decades that is what they bring to the table. Risk.…

And what happens when it decreases the number of people who choose to get an education to seek greater opportunities? After all, the thought of perpetual poverty is a huge motivator. With that gone? Won't we see a higher divide between skilled and unskilled, rich and poor? I'm a bit skeptical about this supposed panacea that cures crime, disease, and teen pregnancy, all in one fell swoop.

The one real world example we have, of Dauphin, suggests this is not the case at all.

A final report was never issued, but Dr. Evelyn Forget conducted an analysis of the program in 2009 which was published in 2011. She found that only new mothers and teenagers worked substantially less. Mothers with newborns stopped working because they wanted to stay at home longer with their babies, and teenagers worked less because they weren't under as much pressure to support their families, which resulted in more teenagers graduating. In addition, those who continued to work were given more opportunities to choose what type of work they did. Forget found that in the period that Mincome was administered, hospital visits dropped 8.5 percent, with fewer incidences of work-related injuries, and fewer emergency room visits from car accidents and domestic abuse. Additionally, the period saw a reduction in rates of psychiatric hospitalization, and in the number of mental illness-related consultations with health professionals.[0]

We know that poverty is extremely stressful, and stress leads to all sorts of other negative things. However, there's little evidence showing that poverty provides upward pressure. If we can remove the stress of poverty, people are allowed to start functioning normally.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#34

Post by kristiandupont »

drcube wrote: post #25
peterdundi wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions" Why should they be free to make their own decision about how they spend MY money?

Because you gave it to them. Don't give them money if you don't want them to have it. Since you voted for a government that distributes welfare from your taxes, the most efficient, effective and humane method of distributing that welfare is to hand out cash with no strings attached. Any additional administration is simply a waste of money, with worse outcomes.

>Don't give them money if you don't want them to have it.

So you want to make the system optional? If so, how would it be different from somebody simply setting up a charity?

Your second statement is pretty bold. I am not necessarily disagreeing but nobody knows what the effects of a system like that would be because we've never tried it.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#35

Post by cobrausn »

lelandbatey wrote: post #21
cobrausn wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what happens when it decreases the number of people who choose to get an education to seek greater opportunities? After all, the thought of perpetual poverty is a huge motivator. With that gone? Won't we see a higher divide between skilled and unskilled, rich and poor? I'm a bit skeptical about this supposed panacea that cures crime, disease, and teen pregnancy, all in one fell swoop.

Once people reach a livable income, do they totally stop learning, inventing, or creating? I know I don't, and I know other people I see with financial security don't just "stop" either. Because of that, I believe it's at least worth a try.

My ability to invent and create is limited by my education. If I never got one in the first place because I had my basic needs met, there are quite a few things I could never do that I could now. And 'worth a try' on something this potentially disruptive needs more evidence than wants and feels for me to ever consider it viable. I don't think I'm alone.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#36

Post by adekok »

peterdundi wrote: post #10
drcube wrote: post #7

I've been saying this for years now. Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions without the fate of crushing poverty over their heads. Give them the financial breathing room to learn a new skill, start a business, or simply find a better job than the one they currently have. Basically, the freedom to take risks. Rich people have been telling us for decades that is what they bring to the table. Risk.…

"Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions" Why should they be free to make their own decision about how they spend MY money?

This seems to me a typical US response. Let me give you a perspective from the rest of the world. I've lived for years in multiple countries on multiple continents, so I'm not just talking out my backside.

In the rest of the world, the poor people vote for health care, welfare, and unemployment insurance. This is because they want that safety for themselves if something goes wrong. They recognize that these programs are largely insurance. They pay into them in the expectation that most of the time nothing goes wrong, and they're not getting their moneys worth.

But when something does go wrong, the insurance is there to help them. In that situation, they get far more out of it than they put in.

Their decision to pay insurance is a rational one, based on cost/benefit analysis. It's the same as your decision to buy life insurance, or fire insurance on your house. (Car insurance is usually mandated, so I'll ignore that...)

Sure, there are scammers. But the scammers of these programs are individuals. Their impact is limited. The scams done by corporations, and people with the right connections far outweigh the scams done by Joe Average on welfare.

In the US, the poor people vote for no health care, no welfare, and no unemployment benefits. They also vote for lower taxes on the rich (corporate, inheritance, etc.). They claim this attitude is because they don't want idiots on welfare spending MY money.

You might be well intentioned, but the rest of the world thinks your approach is crazy. Not "Gosh, that's crazy!". But "We, the jury, find the defendant not guilty by reason of mental defect".

The disparity between rich and poor in the US has grown enormously in the past 20 years. And it's all because the average joe has bought a line of horse twaddle about "independence" and "welfare mom living off of MY money".

The rich people who've sold you that crap are laughing all the way to the bank. And Joe Average is left wondering why he's doing everything he's told... and is still poorer than his parents.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#37

Post by pstuart »

lelandbatey wrote: post #21
cobrausn wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what happens when it decreases the number of people who choose to get an education to seek greater opportunities? After all, the thought of perpetual poverty is a huge motivator. With that gone? Won't we see a higher divide between skilled and unskilled, rich and poor? I'm a bit skeptical about this supposed panacea that cures crime, disease, and teen pregnancy, all in one fell swoop.

Once people reach a livable income, do they totally stop learning, inventing, or creating? I know I don't, and I know other people I see with financial security don't just "stop" either. Because of that, I believe it's at least worth a try.

I'm sure many would be happy to watch tv all day long. But likely a majority would want to do something with their lives.

If we were to do a program like this it should also include free birth control and even the option to sell reproductive rights. I've seen Idiocracy and while it is hyperbolic, I think there are elements of truth there.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#38

Post by chrislgrigg »

peterdundi wrote: post #9

This is unpopular here, but I really believe that if you can't provide for yourself financially there is something seriously wrong with you, and I don't think treating you like a child is unreasonable. Beyond washing and feeding yourself, getting an income is pretty much adulthood 101.

This is an extremely ignorant statement to make. Providing for yourself financially is easy if you have the right situation: support structure, upbringing, experience, opportunity, geography, luck, and attitude + thought process that is the typical result of all of those things. Your experience with getting an income leads you to think it is "pretty much adulthood 101" but there are no universal truths when it comes to this sort of thing.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#39

Post by carbocation »

How would minimum basic income free us from a welfare state?

What happens when your $50,000 in medical bills is greater than your $27,000 in annual income (or whatever it happens to be), and you elected not to purchase insurance with your money? Serious question, not meant at a dig against this proposal, because I am genuinely curious as to how it would be handled.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#40

Post by jchrisa »

cobrausn wrote: post #35
lelandbatey wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once people reach a livable income, do they totally stop learning, inventing, or creating? I know I don't, and I know other people I see with financial security don't just "stop" either. Because of that, I believe it's at least worth a try.

My ability to invent and create is limited by my education. If I never got one in the first place because I had my basic needs met, there are quite a few things I could never do that I could now. And 'worth a try' on something this potentially disruptive needs more evidence than wants and feels for me to ever consider it viable. I don't think I'm alone.

It seems you'd get more folks w education, not less, if they weren't starving.
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