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"Careless" employees

niniane.blogspot.com

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Re: "Careless" employees

#31

Post by nilkn »

adeptus wrote: post #23

So basically you want to implement Enterprise QA processes for a tiny team so as to make up for incompetence and bad hiring decisions. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Unit tests and basic code reviews aren't exactly exclusive to enterprise-level system architecture these days.

Regarding unit tests, their utility is actually mostly independent of the size of the team. The more relevant factor is the size of the codebase. A small team can end up producing a pretty huge codebase, and solid unit tests can end up saving a lot of frustration in the future. They also can be critical in helping new developers familiarize themselves with the codebase and its interdependencies.

Code reviews are an investment not just in the code and the product but also in the human capital producing it. One thing you'll learn with experience is that even very good developers will write bad code sometimes. If you've got millions of users, simply doing code reviews can be a lot less stressful than finding small mistakes later on when bugs pop up in production and a hotfix has to be pushed. It leads to less blame, fewer production bugs, and a more collaborative, academic environment. People can learn and grow a lot from code reviews (both receiving and giving). They'll improve the product and codebase not just in the short term, but doubly so in the long run.

Re: "Careless" employees

#32

Post by penguindev »

adeptus wrote: post #23

So basically you want to implement Enterprise QA processes for a tiny team so as to make up for incompetence and bad hiring decisions. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Yep. I don't think doing an 'art review' is going to turn many amateur painters into a picasso.

Code reviews also suck up time of your most senior people. Personally, I'd rather just have some fucking TESTERS. (manual or automatic script writers).

Re: "Careless" employees

#33

Post by timr »

Yeah, code review is great...until you find out that some of your reviewers are rubber-stamping the commits from their favorites, and a large percentage of the rest are doing a sub-standard job of reviewing, and pretty much everyone is just barely finding the time to do the (decidedly un-fun) chore of reviewing code, instead of writing code. So you're back to the root cause of the problem: you have to hire good people.

Truly careless employees will (ironically) work hard to find ways around any system that you put in place to prevent carelessness. There are no magic bullets.

Re: "Careless" employees

#34

Post by incision »

pasbesoin wrote: post #27

I am going to approach this a bit from the other side. And I'll make it personal, rather than asking a series of indirect questions. More than once, I've ended up in a position where I've put considerable effort into fixing what are often frankly the shortcomings of other co-workers. Co-workers who sometimes may be observed to be very busy discussing their weekends, or the latest movie, etc. I've fixed conditions tha…

I think you're actually talking about a very different situation than the source.

The source is dealing with subordinates in each case while you're dealing with peers.

I've been in both positions.

In the case of co-workers whom you have little or no influence over, yeah "get the fuck out" is likely great advice.

In the case of subordinates, or any situation where you have the power/latitude to address things from the top down it makes sense to address the processes in place.

That said, sometimes the process that needs addressing is the identification, swift firing and future avoidance of individual bullshitters and assholes.

Re: "Careless" employees

#35

Post by pasbesoin »

incision wrote: post #34
pasbesoin wrote: post #27

I am going to approach this a bit from the other side. And I'll make it personal, rather than asking a series of indirect questions. More than once, I've ended up in a position where I've put considerable effort into fixing what are often frankly the shortcomings of other co-workers. Co-workers who sometimes may be observed to be very busy discussing their weekends, or the latest movie, etc. I've fixed conditions tha…

I think you're actually talking about a very different situation than the source. The source is dealing with subordinates in each case while you're dealing with peers. I've been in both positions. In the case of co-workers whom you have little or no influence over, yeah "get the fuck out" is likely great advice. In the case of subordinates, or any situation where you have the power/latitude to address things from the…

That's a fair point. But I did say I was approaching this problem "from the other side". Admittedly, rather quickly and off-the-cuff, and personally.

I think more readers of this thread may be in the relatively "powerless" position, rather than the empowered position.

And, again from my perspective, I wish someone had made clear to me sooner how the world really works, today (and likely always). "Paying your dues". Earning respect. There are environments in which this works. But there are many in which it does not.

From the perspective of the OP, they've already made the point. But I might add a note of succinctness. GIGO -- garbage in, garbage out. The leadership I see more clearly upon rereading and assume they are addressing: They're stuck at GI.

Re: "Careless" employees

#36

Post by calinet6 »

pasbesoin wrote: post #27

I am going to approach this a bit from the other side. And I'll make it personal, rather than asking a series of indirect questions. More than once, I've ended up in a position where I've put considerable effort into fixing what are often frankly the shortcomings of other co-workers. Co-workers who sometimes may be observed to be very busy discussing their weekends, or the latest movie, etc. I've fixed conditions tha…

The answer to your pains, and how it relates to the article and its insights, is that culture is a system.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say culture is the root of the organizational tree. It's underground and most organizations sort of ignore it, or worse, treat it like it was a hypothetical illusory nuisance they have to lie about to attract rockstars. Ugh.

So culture is the root of the system. It defines how people work together, and how people and work are treated. Culture defines the unseen and unmeasurable motivations people rely upon, without which you get exactly the problems you describe: lack of common purpose, lack of knowledge of process, lack of improvement, infighting, game playing, reward seeking. These are all cultural problems.

I wholeheartedly agree that this is a sign of major problems in perspective in the US. The anti-pattern here is individualistic-dominated thinking, which doesn't accurately describe or solve the problems of an organization of more than one person. It's actually painful to watch corporate culture in this country if you have an understanding of systems design and process control, and especially if you apply it to the human systems of which we are all a part. Science has the answers, but no one cares. Painful.

Read up and spread the systems knowledge: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

Re: "Careless" employees

#37

Post by incision »

pasbesoin wrote: post #35
incision wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're actually talking about a very different situation than the source. The source is dealing with subordinates in each case while you're dealing with peers. I've been in both positions. In the case of co-workers whom you have little or no influence over, yeah "get the fuck out" is likely great advice. In the case of subordinates, or any situation where you have the power/latitude to address things from the…

That's a fair point. But I did say I was approaching this problem "from the other side". Admittedly, rather quickly and off-the-cuff, and personally. I think more readers of this thread may be in the relatively "powerless" position, rather than the empowered position. And, again from my perspective, I wish someone had made clear to me sooner how the world really works, today (and likely always). "Paying your dues". E…

>"And, again from my perspective, I wish someone had made clear to me sooner how the world really works, today (and likely always). "Paying your dues". Earning respect. There are environments in which this works. But there are many in which it does not."

Very true. This is why I think "get the fuck out" is often great advice. Keep moving, onward and upward. Sit still too long and you run the risk of getting run down and becoming what you hate without even realizing it.

It seems to me there are plenty of books which claim to teach you how to be a great leader, but not so many about how to manage up, lead from the rear and survive among hostile peers.

Personally, one of the better resources I've read for this was The 48 Laws of Power [1]. The book sometimes gets a bad rap from people who look at it as a manual for your own action. While it could certainly be applied that way, it's at least as useful for understanding the mechanism of others actions and how to protect yourself against or benefit from them.

1: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0140280197/

Re: "Careless" employees

#38

Post by buckbova »

We've tried to institute technical design docs and reviews and failed.

Management keeps asking we do them but doesn't enforce it.

Developers don't want to do it and take it personally when you suggest a different approach during the review.

Management sets deadlines on projects without consulting leads or architects.

I (database architect) have suggested we add steps for technical approval and code reviews to our feature/bug tracking system but have been ignored.

I'm sure people can relate out there.

Re: "Careless" employees

#39

Post by Pxtl »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #21

I think these are all fantastic things to implement but do you know how much pushback you get from engineers on this: Me: "Do you have a standup every morning, so that you know about schedule delays after at most one day?" In general folks HATE these, but I would love to hear other cases where people have found them successful. We are small enough that the conversation is ongoing so haven't needed to implement it. Wh…

I think the important point is that a boss needs to touch-base with each employee daily, and how you do it is up to you.

Re: "Careless" employees

#40

Post by Pxtl »

penguindev wrote: post #32
adeptus wrote: post #23

So basically you want to implement Enterprise QA processes for a tiny team so as to make up for incompetence and bad hiring decisions. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Yep. I don't think doing an 'art review' is going to turn many amateur painters into a picasso. Code reviews also suck up time of your most senior people. Personally, I'd rather just have some fucking TESTERS. (manual or automatic script writers).

You'd be surprised. A crucial part of learning to be an artist is open critiques. It is the one moment when lovey-dovey artists suddenly turn into the same kind of nitpicky curmudgeons as us coders.

Where do you think great artists come from?

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