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Ways That Startup Lawyers Overcharge

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Re: Ways That Startup Lawyers Overcharge

#31
Having been both a founder and now a start-up lawyer at a large firm, I'd toss in a few extra tips:

(1) If you're unhappy with your bill, PUSH BACK ON IT. Even if you like the partner that you're working with, a substantial portion of your bill will be generated by paralegals and associates like me. And, as an associate, my marching orders are to account for every last minute of my day, even if I think it was an unreasonable thing to bill for. In theory, the partner is supposed to see these items before they go out and make a judgment call on whether to write it off, but more often than not, the partner will eyeball the total amount without looking too closely at the details.

Case in point: When I was a founder, a paralegal at a well-known law firm made a mistake with our cap table and left off a single share. We ended up getting billed $300 to find that single share. When we changed firms a year later, we mentioned this to the partner, who was surprised and had no idea this had happened (despite ostensibly signing off on the bill).

(2) Check in with your lawyer regularly -- doesn't have to be a phone call. A quick e-mail will do. Bills often come in monthly intervals, and fees can rack up pretty quickly in that time. As a lawyer, I'll often start work on a new matter only to find out that my work is no longer required after several weeks have passed and I've already billed the item. Regular check-ins can help avoid this. In addition, it'll be easier to draw connections between vague descriptions on your bill ("Attend to cap table") and what actually happened ("find missing share that paralegal left out"). As a side benefit, regular check-ins result in faster turn around, especially if there are multiple matters competing for your layer's attention.

(3) Second opinions can be free. If you're unsure about the advice your getting from a lawyer, ask a lawyer at another firm. Those other lawyers will view this as a chance to poach a client and will write their time off as business development. As a side benefit, those lawyers may point out mistakes that your current law firm didn't catch or is reluctant to admit to.

Re: Ways That Startup Lawyers Overcharge

#32
All of these are great to watch out for. However, the "Value Billing" one seems a little like, oh, let's see... Software! Programmers do value billing all the time. We write one piece of software and charge n number of customers for it. So, if programmers can do it, so can lawyers.

Re: Ways That Startup Lawyers Overcharge

#34
post #3

A lot of these strike me as not only sneaky, but unethical and possibly even illegal. For example, as a software consultant I would feel I were committing fraud were I to bill two clients for the same hour of time. Is there a different consensus around the definition of "billable time" in the legal world that makes this not as bad as it sounds?

It actually is against the professional rules that govern attorney conduct. We (lawyers) are trained on this in school in a mandatory course and have to pass a standardized ethics exam to be licensed (separate from the bar exam).

Re: Ways That Startup Lawyers Overcharge

#35
post #25
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Spend time finding someone you trust" Sounds very "find a good lawyer". How do you find someone you can trust? Or do you mean someone who appears trustworthy? Also noting that the parent comment says that they stopped checking the bills. There are cases in business where people know this dynamic and once they aren't being checked they tend to take more chances. Hence even the person who relates "he is great and I tr…

The traditional and probably best way to find a good attorney is through your network of people you trust.

I agree that that is the standard and typical advice that people follow.

But people tend to, in addition to doing the subjective "good work" [1], they refer people that they like personally or who encourage the type of relationship building that leads to more work. [2]

Also, in theory at least, if an attorney ends up being referred a great deal and has a nice book of business they would raise their rates and/or push work off on subordinates, right?

[1] And how, with legal work, do you know if it's "good" until the shit hits the fan or there is a problem?

[2] Even physicians are susceptible to this (but less so). I don't want to know who you like personally or who you know but who you think does a really good job as a clinician. And maybe you hate that person or their personality. That's fine. I just want someone who is good I don't care if you like having him over for dinner. (Had a girlfriend once whose father was a surgeon and they were always entertaining the family practice doctors so they could get referrals. He was a jerk to his family but he was sweet as sugar to the other physicians who he needed.

Re: Ways That Startup Lawyers Overcharge

#36
post #27

This is generally good advice, but I'd like to discuss #6 (double billing during travel) and #9 (overbilling on assignments). Both are highly unethical practices. I can't imagine that they're all that common, if only because in this day and age of electronic billing and sophisticated clients, it's so easy to get caught doing something like that. As for #4 and #7, as a client you can probably get concessions given tha…

Fixed fee arrangements: You're more likely to get this from a smaller firm. The more clients a lawyer gets, the less likely he or she is willing to accept a fixed fee model. As a lawyer, I can say the reason we're reluctant to do fixed fee models is that a substantial portion of how much time we spend on things is not within our control. We'll often find out in the middle of a deal that, for example, a Company signed a problematic agreement without telling us, and that we now have to spending time fixing that agreement. It's hard to built this cost into a fixed fee arrangement (especially if we haven't had any prior dealings with this client). As that time comes at the expense of servicing other clients, many lawyers are reluctant to go this route.

That said, you should always ask for a ballpark estimate of how much any transaction will cost before going into it. This will give you leverage in negotiating the bill down if, for some reason, the bill ends up going over.

Re: Ways That Startup Lawyers Overcharge

#37
post #25
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Spend time finding someone you trust" Sounds very "find a good lawyer". How do you find someone you can trust? Or do you mean someone who appears trustworthy? Also noting that the parent comment says that they stopped checking the bills. There are cases in business where people know this dynamic and once they aren't being checked they tend to take more chances. Hence even the person who relates "he is great and I tr…

The traditional and probably best way to find a good attorney is through your network of people you trust.

The problem with this traditional method is that it relies on the judgement of people who are not legal professionals.

If my friends and cofounders tell me "John S is an excellent programmer!(or marketer, or designer)" I cna trust that. They know the industry, they know the skills, and can formulate informed opinions.

If those same people tell me "John S is an excellent attorney!", I can't trust it. They don't know anything about the legal profession other than the bill they get. They don't even necessarily know what to look for to indicate that John S is an untrustworthy git .

Re: Ways That Startup Lawyers Overcharge

#38
post #27

This is generally good advice, but I'd like to discuss #6 (double billing during travel) and #9 (overbilling on assignments). Both are highly unethical practices. I can't imagine that they're all that common, if only because in this day and age of electronic billing and sophisticated clients, it's so easy to get caught doing something like that. As for #4 and #7, as a client you can probably get concessions given tha…

The cost of training is baked into the price of every product you buy, and legal services is no different

At $60/10min, they can take their lumps for training new staff, just like everyone else. If you call tech support, you're not charged extra when there's a trainee doing a ride-along. If you use retail, it doesn't cost more if a trainee cashier is serving you with a supervisor hovering over them. Having your car fixed doesn't cost more because an apprentice worked on it.

No other industry sees this sort of extra charge as reasonable, especially when there's so much fat built into the price to begin with.

Re: Ways That Startup Lawyers Overcharge

#40
It really seems like the law industry does this type of stuff all the time, which is bs.

The law industry is a service business. You pay them for their services. The service you get is much less than what you pay for. This mismatch = an opportunity to do better and make a lot of money.

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