What happens when a language has no numbers? • Hacker News Board

Re: What happens when a language has no numbers?

#31

Post by tokenadult » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 12:12 PM UTC

riffraff wrote: post #6

trivia: there are some languages out there which don't have different concepts for PIROS and VÖRÖS, and just bunch them together under a single color ("red" in english).

Yes, the book described in this Wikipedia article

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Color_Terms:_Their_Unive...

(which I read years ago) makes a case for a language-universal gradation of color terms in the spectrum of visible light, with some languages having few of the terms, and some languages having more, and some languages having quite a few. (In the languages I know best, English has more color terms than Chinese, but Russian has more than English.)

Re: What happens when a language has no numbers?

#32

Post by favadi » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 12:14 PM UTC

I use a language has no numbers every day (Bash).

Re: What happens when a language has no numbers?

#33

Post by whatusername » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 12:52 PM UTC

tehwalrus wrote: post #18

elnate wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Red is a broad group of colours. There are plenty of more specific names for types of red, like scarlet or ruby, does that qualify?

but when you ask a non-specialist[1] "what color is this", pointing to a scarlet object, they'll say "red". They will also take longer to tell the difference between turquoise and blue than between proper green and blue, where (I think it was) Thai-speakers wouldn't[2] (who have a primary-colour word for turquoise). [1] specialist = (color-theorist, decorator) [2] http://www.pnas.org/content/104/19/7780.full actually…

And for the nerd comparisons: http://blog.xkcd.com/2010/05/03/color-survey-results/

Re: What happens when a language has no numbers?

#34

Post by SideburnsOfDoom » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 12:59 PM UTC

apostlion wrote: post #22

elnate wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Red is a broad group of colours. There are plenty of more specific names for types of red, like scarlet or ruby, does that qualify?

I've seen somewhere a test for how many color words are there in the language - only color-words which do not correspond to a specific material or plant which color is emulated are accepted. So “red” or “blue” is fine, as is “piros” or “vörös” - but “sky blue” (color of sky), “ruby” (color of the gemstone) or “scarlet” (color of the Scarlet cloth) are not.

"the Scarlet cloth", what's that?

It may have referred to something specific once, but now it's just a colour.

There are many examples of things that are just a part of speech now. e.g. when was the last time you had the opportunity to actually "put the cart before the horse" or "strike while the iron is hot".

Re: What happens when a language has no numbers?

#35

Post by meepmorp » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 1:13 PM UTC

prof_hobart wrote: post #29

Theodores wrote: post #14

...they spark up conversation with the neighbouring tribe that has no concept of time! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13452711 ...and then it all falls to pieces because they have no concept of god! More to the point, what is the big deal with counting if there is no concept of private property?

I left the house with a somewhat largish amount of children. I've still got a somewhat largish amount of children, so I can't have left any of them behind.

I left the house with David, Susan, Steve, Kate, Alice, and George. I still have David, Susan, Steve, Kate, Alice, and George, so I can't have left any behind.

I've got issues with a lot of (Dan) Everett's work, but you don't need counting to handle that scenario.

Re: What happens when a language has no numbers?

#36

Post by Pitarou » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 1:33 PM UTC

I really don't know whether to believe this article. The whole setup sounds a little too ... perfect.

We have:

* a language where "speakers can dispense with their vowels and consonants altogether and sing, hum, or whistle conversations"

* a language that "contains no words at all for discrete numbers"

* a tribe too arrogant to learn any other language

There are stranger things in the world, but I'd take a long, hard look at the guy reporting these facts before I took them at face value

Re: What happens when a language has no numbers?

#37

Post by JonSkeptic » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 1:33 PM UTC

I am surprised that no one has mentioned the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis[0]. It's incredible, the effect that language can have on the mind. Given that they can communicate in whistles and hums, I'd also be interested in a study about their music as well.

[0]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

Re: What happens when a language has no numbers?

#38

Post by andyjohnson0 » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 1:40 PM UTC

michaelfeathers wrote: post #15

Anyone interested in the Pirahã should read 'Don't Sleep, There Are Snakes: Life and Language in the Amazonian Jungle' by Daniel Everett ( http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Sleep-There-Are-Snakes/dp/0307386... ) There's quite a bit about the language, but the backstory of Daniel going over as a missionary and losing his faith (and family) while trying to convert a happy people in no need of religion is stunning.

Everett gave a very interesting talk [1] to the Long Now org a few years ago in which he describes some of his experiences working with the Pirahã. Video is available at [2].

[1] http://longnow.org/seminars/02009/mar/20/endangered-language...

[2] http://fora.tv/2009/03/20/Daniel_Everett_Endangered_Language...

Re: What happens when a language has no numbers?

#39

Post by tehwalrus » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 1:41 PM UTC

whatusername wrote: post #33

tehwalrus wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but when you ask a non-specialist[1] "what color is this", pointing to a scarlet object, they'll say "red". They will also take longer to tell the difference between turquoise and blue than between proper green and blue, where (I think it was) Thai-speakers wouldn't[2] (who have a primary-colour word for turquoise). [1] specialist = (color-theorist, decorator) [2] http://www.pnas.org/content/104/19/7780.full actually…

And for the nerd comparisons: http://blog.xkcd.com/2010/05/03/color-survey-results/

Re: What happens when a language has no numbers?

#40

Post by prof_hobart » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 1:41 PM UTC

meepmorp wrote: post #35

prof_hobart wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I left the house with a somewhat largish amount of children. I've still got a somewhat largish amount of children, so I can't have left any of them behind.

I left the house with David, Susan, Steve, Kate, Alice, and George. I still have David, Susan, Steve, Kate, Alice, and George, so I can't have left any behind. I've got issues with a lot of (Dan) Everett's work, but you don't need counting to handle that scenario.

You've now got to remember all of the kids' individual names (and hope that you haven't got a somewhat largish amount of John Smiths in your group), rather than remembering "I had 6. I've still got 6".

It's also even more of a challenge when the things you've got to remember aren't easily individually identified - a flock of sheep or apples or whatever.