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TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

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Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#31

Post by tsaoutourpants »

k2enemy wrote: post #15

I'm a huge critic of the TSA and would be thrilled to see it dismantled, but I always find these kinds of arguments a little intellectually dishonest. It could be that “terrorist threat groups present in the Homeland are not known to be actively plotting against civil aviation targets or airports” because we have scanners in place that deter that kind of threat. Now, I don't believe this is the case, as plenty of res…

The issue (beyond the fact that the scanners don't work, which you've addressed and I publicly schooled back in March 2012) is that in public (especially on the floor of Congress) the TSA talks up all of these threats against us in order to garner support. Essentially, we've been lied to, which, at this point, is not a surprise coming from any federal agency.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#32

Post by tokenizer »

k2enemy wrote: post #15

I'm a huge critic of the TSA and would be thrilled to see it dismantled, but I always find these kinds of arguments a little intellectually dishonest. It could be that “terrorist threat groups present in the Homeland are not known to be actively plotting against civil aviation targets or airports” because we have scanners in place that deter that kind of threat. Now, I don't believe this is the case, as plenty of res…

> By that logic, we should remove security at Fort Knox because it never gets robbed.

Airports should have security. Every country has security in their airports. Where it crosses the line are when you have the security preemptively treat you like a criminal, and violate your personhood without justification other than a blanket statement of "terrorists".

Security ! always have to = Neo-Fascism. But many people feel it does in American airports.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#33

Post by zzzeek »

MrZongle2 wrote: post #23
zzzeek wrote: post #7

I know I'm throwing my karma down the toilet here but domestic-sourced airline terrorism has happened before. The TSA (edit: OK, whoever it was that scanned our bags and ran us through the metal detector, if it was not "the TSA") was unaware of 9/11 as well. Argue all you want that we should just tolerate the occasional 9/11-style (edit: or the random pipe bomb blowing out the side of the plane, cockpit doors can't p…

The TSA did not exist prior to 9/11/2001. Elements of various intelligence community agencies were aware of a 9/11-style plot and were aware of the hijackers' existence within the United States. If these existing agencies had worked together and done their job , 9/11 might never have happened. All without anyone removing their belts, frisking grandma, or having to stand like a perp in a county lock-up.

that is very interesting. were the people scanning the luggage and such beforehand just hired by individual airports?

I've no issue with restructuring TSA or whatnot, I just think that if people could get on airplanes the way they do buses, there'd be events. Not so much 9/11 style hijackings, more like the occasional pipe bomb or shooting.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#34

Post by MaysonL »

canistr wrote: post #4

But couldn't it be argued that the use of body-scanners functions as a form of strong deterrent for potential plots? If a potential terrorist understands that they will eventually be caught or that the stakes to beat the system are too high, they will look at alternative forms of terrorism simply because the investment to beat airport security is too high.

Then again, take a look at the rest of the world: are they using body scanners? We're not the only country where terrorists have attacked.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#35

Post by snorkel »

canistr wrote: post #4

But couldn't it be argued that the use of body-scanners functions as a form of strong deterrent for potential plots? If a potential terrorist understands that they will eventually be caught or that the stakes to beat the system are too high, they will look at alternative forms of terrorism simply because the investment to beat airport security is too high.

True. In the 1970's back when boarding a plane was as casual as boarding a metro bus, commercial flights were routinely hijacked by amateurs so often it became a joke. Passenger screening was started in response to that, and it was real. Whether every screening practice today is effective is debatable but no screening at all would be open mike night for any crank with a grievance.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#36

Post by tedunangst »

k2enemy wrote: post #15

I'm a huge critic of the TSA and would be thrilled to see it dismantled, but I always find these kinds of arguments a little intellectually dishonest. It could be that “terrorist threat groups present in the Homeland are not known to be actively plotting against civil aviation targets or airports” because we have scanners in place that deter that kind of threat. Now, I don't believe this is the case, as plenty of res…

How's the saying go? Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. Except when it is.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#37

Post by jessaustin »

canistr wrote: post #4

But couldn't it be argued that the use of body-scanners functions as a form of strong deterrent for potential plots? If a potential terrorist understands that they will eventually be caught or that the stakes to beat the system are too high, they will look at alternative forms of terrorism simply because the investment to beat airport security is too high.

You're assuming a number of seemingly questionable propositions about "potential terrorists". Do they really care more about personal outcomes than mission outcomes? (I might not mind that I'm caught, if my colleagues succeed before they are caught.) Do they really care so much about "high stakes"? (If I'm comfortable with martyrdom I may be comfortable with a number of other outcomes.) Are they actually so willing to substitute "alternative forms of terrorism" for the sorts of acts that have been successful before? Do they care about returns on "investments"? (Those who fund operations may be civilians in some sense, and not the same people who take decisions regarding the use of those funds or of other resources.)

Besides, the point about alternatives is problematic in other ways. If vast public resources are expended moving problems from one location to another location, were those resources well spent?

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#38

Post by MrZongle2 »

chris_mahan wrote: post #8
pavlov wrote: post #2

...But as you can see, Senator, there is also no evidence of the guaranteed absence of terrorist plots either. They are obviously even better hidden than we feared. Increased resources will be required to bring them to light. Our department has drafted a new budget proposal that takes this changed situation into account.

Especially since, Senator, the new facility to be built and staffed for the purpose of identifying these better-hidden terrorists, will be built in your district!

"...though somewhere between 30 and 45% of the contract cost will go to cover the administration and management of this contract, by employees in the greater Washington DC area..."

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#39

Post by angersock »

computer wrote: post #16
zzzeek wrote: post #7

I know I'm throwing my karma down the toilet here but domestic-sourced airline terrorism has happened before. The TSA (edit: OK, whoever it was that scanned our bags and ran us through the metal detector, if it was not "the TSA") was unaware of 9/11 as well. Argue all you want that we should just tolerate the occasional 9/11-style (edit: or the random pipe bomb blowing out the side of the plane, cockpit doors can't p…

You know what the answer is to 9/11-style events? Locking cockpit doors. And that's what they did after 9/11. Passengers now know what's at stake too. So, while bad things can happen, another 9/11 can't happen again (and as such, the TSA does nothing to prevent it anyway).

To further this point...we can either continue to incur the cost and overhead of reacting to every terrible event that happens and changing things to prevent that particular edge case, or we can accept that bad things sometimes happen to good people and simply keep calm and carry on.

I think we're ultimately better served by the latter approach.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#40

Post by rhizome »

canistr wrote: post #4

But couldn't it be argued that the use of body-scanners functions as a form of strong deterrent for potential plots? If a potential terrorist understands that they will eventually be caught or that the stakes to beat the system are too high, they will look at alternative forms of terrorism simply because the investment to beat airport security is too high.

But couldn't it be argued that the use of body-scanners functions as a form of strong deterrent for potential plots?

No, because there have been attempts that the scanners have not caught, and were thwarted not by the TSA, nor any government agency, but by other passengers. Know thy history, I'm not even accounting for the white-hat tests that the TSA has soundly failed.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/8/tsa-fails-und...

http://blog.tsa.gov/2010/12/70-detection-failure-rate-being....

http://www.prisonplanet.com/tsa-scanners-repeatedly-fail-to-...

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