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Peak Oil Perspective

physics.ucsd.edu

31–40 of 89 posts

Re: Peak Oil Perspective

#31
post #4

As a geologist in the oil industry, this is one of the few articles I've seen on peak oil that absolutely nails the salient points. (And even gets the geology correct.) To quote: "Most simply, peak oil is about rates, not amounts." Yes, there are a lot of unconventional resources. They're just a lot harder, more expensive, and most importantly in this context, slower to produce. On the upshot for me, and the downshot…

It's not an unmixed blessing, considering global warming. And there's nothing preventing people from synthesizing gasoline from other energy sources and atmospheric gases, it's just rather expensive.

Re: Peak Oil Perspective

#32
post #11
post #4

As a geologist in the oil industry, this is one of the few articles I've seen on peak oil that absolutely nails the salient points. (And even gets the geology correct.) To quote: "Most simply, peak oil is about rates, not amounts." Yes, there are a lot of unconventional resources. They're just a lot harder, more expensive, and most importantly in this context, slower to produce. On the upshot for me, and the downshot…

The concept "peak oil" to me seems to misdirect the debate right off the bat. Obviously the question isn't "when do we run out of oil" but "how does oil supply given continually increasing demand affect oil price" and "what does rising oil price do to the rest of the economy? Inflation-adjusted, the price of a barrel of crude oil was $23 in 1960, and has been averaging almost $88 in 2013. What does that do to, e.g.,…

Well, the debate often gets off track, but the definition of the term "peak oil" is "when production stops increasing due to market demands and starts decreasing due to geologic control".

In other words, "when does long-term demand outstrip long-term supply?" The concept isn't to blame, it's just misinterpretation of it in the popular media.

At any rate, as you pointed out, the interesting question is "what does rising oil price do to the economy?".

Re: Peak Oil Perspective

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes sense economically, but that doesn't address the difficulties we will face as oil becomes too expensive for common, important uses. Our fleet of oil-consuming vehicles won't magically convert themselves. The oil-backed electrical grid will take a hit. Food will become incredibly expensive (or more scarce) since the vast majority will come from far away, and have been transported via oil.

Not just that. Most corn production heavily depends on oil-based inputs, such as fertilizer, fuel for machinery, and natural gas for drying and storage. Corn from the same county will become much more expensive, even without transportation costs.

Fertilizer does not come from oil. This is a myth. Natural gas is not an oil-based input.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertilizer#Inorganic_commercial...

Re: Peak Oil Perspective

#34

> The risk is asymmetric: starting a crash program toward replacement of finite fossil fuels too early has great up-sides and marginal downsides (opportunity cost); but failure to act has enormous downside for marginal upside. - See more at: http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/11/peak-oil-perspec... This is a more intelligent way of stating something I've been saying for years. I always explain my position on pe…

The problem is, the United States is tying its own hands by not allowing the development of newer, safer, more efficient nuclear power plants. If we could, we would be able to retire the older, not-as-safe, less-efficient nuclear power plants - and the price of electricity would go down making it more affordable to use electric cars all while using less fossil fuels!

I'm all for having a cleaner, safer environment. But until people get over their "not in my backyard" emotions, and get rid of harmful environmental regulations, then we are forced to use the technology that that is more harmful to the environment.

Re: Peak Oil Perspective

#35
post #5

Peak oil depends on oil price, the world is awash in oil at $110. Even up to 2005 oil's peak price was $60. Peak oil also depends on consumption, with cars like Tesla coming out we'll see a sharp decline in consumption over the next 20 to 30 years, at $300/bl a Tesla starts to make a lot of sense. The world will never run out of oil, its price will simply continue to increase until other alternatives become economica…

There could however be a state where things just are not as convenient as they are now. There is no law of nature that says things have to stay as fun as they are now after we have depleted this unique resource that nature had to digest dinosaur bones for a few millions of years for. Tesla's looking good though, so there's hope.

There's also the self-driving car which drastically reduces the number of cars required to replace the existing fleet.

Re: Peak Oil Perspective

#36

> The risk is asymmetric: starting a crash program toward replacement of finite fossil fuels too early has great up-sides and marginal downsides (opportunity cost); but failure to act has enormous downside for marginal upside. - See more at: http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/11/peak-oil-perspec... This is a more intelligent way of stating something I've been saying for years. I always explain my position on pe…

Sure, but that assumes we already know how to build the fire escape, how much it costs, how long it takes, and what it's supposed to look like.

Re: Peak Oil Perspective

#37

> The risk is asymmetric: starting a crash program toward replacement of finite fossil fuels too early has great up-sides and marginal downsides (opportunity cost); but failure to act has enormous downside for marginal upside. - See more at: http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/11/peak-oil-perspec... This is a more intelligent way of stating something I've been saying for years. I always explain my position on pe…

Sure, but that assumes we already know how to build the fire escape, how much it costs, how long it takes, and what it's supposed to look like.

erm, it's time to at least start finding out!

Re: Peak Oil Perspective

#38
There is one thing I always like to mention with the usual peak oil math (and resultant fear/glee concerning "the end of civilization" and such).

The traditional "Hubbert curve" shows exponential growth and decline in a any particular region of oil production. Peak oil theorists generally extend this to a world exponential peak/decline (the article doesn't directly say but it take the "we have to plan for the peak" position).

The exponential growth part makes sense because traditional oil of the ground is a really, "high quality", high efficient energy source (whatever the externalities).

The exponential decline at a given location make sense because the supply winds quickly replaced by some other even cheaper source.

But the thing is that since these aspect explain the shape of the Hubbert curve locally, these is no reason to expect the global decline shape to have any resemblance to the rise shape. Oil today is a efficient meaning you get a lot more energy out than you put in. We're already moving to less efficient, more costly forms of extract and the price has marginally increase.

There's no reason a-priori to think that any cliff would be involved with oil production peaking. Production gets harder, prices go up, consumption declines, technology produces relatively more at the higher rate, iterate a number of times and there you are. It's worth saying that shale oil is arguably much less energy efficient than traditional production but it is still efficient to get a profitable product to market (and does involve the, uh, transformation of a large land area).

The main reason to put effort into alternatives to oil is the externalities - especially since pricier oil is going to involve more energy and environmental impact in its extraction. THAT is quite arguably a crisis but unfortunately for people worried about these problem, there's no going to be a "peak point" where oil isn't practical from a purely economic standpoint.

Re: Peak Oil Perspective

#39

> The risk is asymmetric: starting a crash program toward replacement of finite fossil fuels too early has great up-sides and marginal downsides (opportunity cost); but failure to act has enormous downside for marginal upside. - See more at: http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/11/peak-oil-perspec... This is a more intelligent way of stating something I've been saying for years. I always explain my position on pe…

I feel the exact same way about global warming.

Re: Peak Oil Perspective

#40
post #10
post #5

Peak oil depends on oil price, the world is awash in oil at $110. Even up to 2005 oil's peak price was $60. Peak oil also depends on consumption, with cars like Tesla coming out we'll see a sharp decline in consumption over the next 20 to 30 years, at $300/bl a Tesla starts to make a lot of sense. The world will never run out of oil, its price will simply continue to increase until other alternatives become economica…

The world is "awash" in oil at $110, but that oil simply can't be produced fast enough to meet demand. That's the fundamental problem.

The oil business does not get disrupted by 3 kids in an apartment with $20K.

If you want to open an oil field or a refinery you need billions of dollars and a financial projection that says the oil will stay at $X dollars for at least Y years.

Since most people aren't convinced that oil will stay at $110 dollars for the foreseeable future they'd rather not risk billions of dollars.

If you can accurately predict oil prices stop reading hacker news and open a commodities account.

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