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Things I Never, Ever Want to Hear Again

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Re: Things I Never, Ever Want to Hear Again

#31
post #3

Quote: "I am less and less interested in engaging with the white male establishment, even though it’s been hard to resist with the deluge of stupid racist, misogynist bullshit they’ve been spewing lately." Translation: because sexism is a problem limited to men, any rhetorical excess is justified by the victim class. I wonder if there's an irony gene, and whether it may sometimes be completely deactivated in some ind…

Your translation seems to be oblivious to the fact that "the white male establishment" != "all white men". In fact, there are plenty of women and plenty of people of color who are a part of the white male establishment. And there are even plenty of white men who aren't a part of it! How can that be? Well, all it takes to be a part of it is to be an apologist for inequality or to otherwise perpetuate inequality.

So the reason why it can be referred to as the "white male establishment" isn't because of its membership, but because its existence is mainly for the benefit of white males.

Re: Things I Never, Ever Want to Hear Again

#32
This reminds me of a child having a temper tantrum.

Do you want to know why men in general are having problems being feminist allies? Because feminism, at its core, is hatred of men. Why would we want to be part of a group that shows unfiltered contempt for us because we were born male?

Re: Things I Never, Ever Want to Hear Again

#33
post #31
post #3

Quote: "I am less and less interested in engaging with the white male establishment, even though it’s been hard to resist with the deluge of stupid racist, misogynist bullshit they’ve been spewing lately." Translation: because sexism is a problem limited to men, any rhetorical excess is justified by the victim class. I wonder if there's an irony gene, and whether it may sometimes be completely deactivated in some ind…

Your translation seems to be oblivious to the fact that "the white male establishment" != "all white men". In fact, there are plenty of women and plenty of people of color who are a part of the white male establishment. And there are even plenty of white men who aren't a part of it! How can that be? Well, all it takes to be a part of it is to be an apologist for inequality or to otherwise perpetuate inequality. So th…

> Your translation seems to be oblivious to the fact that "the white male establishment" != "all white men".

The term "white male establishment" seems pretty unambiguous. Even if it involves proxies of many colors and genders, which is your point, it's still fair to describe it as a "problem with men".

> Well, all it takes to be a part of it is to be an apologist for inequality or to otherwise perpetuate inequality.

Yes, and the most effective way for women to address that inequality is to start their own institutions (schools, financial institutions, businesses) that proactively and positively address injustice and inequality, which women can certainly do. Oh, and stop whining about men, which can only serve to hide the fact that the key obstacle women face in 2013 is ... women.

Re: Things I Never, Ever Want to Hear Again

#34
post #22

Quote: "At the same time, literally thousands of white men have engaged me solely to derail, discredit and co-opt conversation about systemic inequalities and the lived experiences of marginalized and oppressed people in our industry." The solution is so obvious that I am astonished that people like the author haven't thought of it -- stop whining, stop listening to haters of both genders, and start schools and compa…

This comment is written like a helpful suggestion, but the subtext—"stop whining", "women helping women", "blame men"—reads as though you just don't want it to be your problem. You don't disagree that women are marginalized, but you still tell them to just go bootstrap themselves and accuse them of playing the victim.

There are plenty of women running programs designed to help other women in the tech sector, but you propose them as though you're unaware that they even exist, which speaks volumes about how easy it is for them to make an impact.

Can men just stop being dicks to women? That seems way simpler than starting schools and companies for teaching women how to overcome all the men who are being dicks to them. It's so obvious, I'm astonished you haven't thought of it.

Re: Things I Never, Ever Want to Hear Again

#35
post #34
post #22

Quote: "At the same time, literally thousands of white men have engaged me solely to derail, discredit and co-opt conversation about systemic inequalities and the lived experiences of marginalized and oppressed people in our industry." The solution is so obvious that I am astonished that people like the author haven't thought of it -- stop whining, stop listening to haters of both genders, and start schools and compa…

This comment is written like a helpful suggestion, but the subtext—"stop whining", "women helping women", "blame men"—reads as though you just don't want it to be your problem. You don't disagree that women are marginalized, but you still tell them to just go bootstrap themselves and accuse them of playing the victim. There are plenty of women running programs designed to help other women in the tech sector, but you…

> ... reads as though you just don't want it to be your problem.

Actually, as a matter of fact, it isn't my problem. Women have rights, freedom, and 60% of the money in society. All they need to do is stop whining, stop listening to negative voices from inside and outside their own community, and choose another approach.

> Can men just stop being dicks to women?

Ah, yes, the default feminist agenda -- it's all the fault of men. That's why I suggest setting up a cooperative economic and technological system, or network if you will, and solve the man problem that way.

Imagine that you're an African-American slave in the U.S. about the time of the Civil War. The problem is obviously slave owners, who will rationalize their behavior as they continue to oppress you, while explaining that it's for your own good.

What are your options? You can complain about the master some more, hope he will eventually change his behavior, or you can enter the underground railroad and change your environment and your prospects.

What's your choice? Complain about your mistreatment at the hands of a congenital racist, risk worse treatment as the biggest change in U.S. history unfolds around you, or move on?

> That seems way simpler than starting schools and companies for teaching women how to overcome all the men who are being dicks to them.

Yes -- the problem is men, so women don't have to do anything except complain and pose as victims.

> It's so obvious, I'm astonished you haven't thought of it.

The problem here isn't what I haven't thought of, it's what you haven't thought of.

During my around-the-world solo sail (http://arachnoid.com/sailbook) I had many adventures. One of the most memorable with respect to the present topic was in a small Egyptian village, where as evening came on, people would gather around the community TV set and watch American TV, which is very popular there.

One of the shows included scenes in which a woman would speak up for her rights -- she might shout at a man who was mistreating her, or simply leave. Normal and justified behavior in the West, but not part of the lives of Egyptian women. I remember how those scenes were received by the village women, and how they did what they could to keep from cheering when they saw a woman speak up for herself.

But you know what? In that society, those women are far from being able to exercise what we might regard as basic human rights. But women in this society don't have that excuse -- women possess, and can exercise, political and economic power, and they can vote with their feet. Or they can try to blame all their problems on men.

The problem is not that women don't have power and rights. The problem is that women won't exercise them. It's much easier to say, "if only men would be nicer," and carry on posing as victims.

Sorry -- no sale.

Re: Things I Never, Ever Want to Hear Again

#36
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone stole my car, and I come up to you. Angrily: "vukmir, some asshole stole my car! I can't believe it! I was late to an important meeting! What a fucking shitbag!" Would you respond with: "Woah woah, why are you so angry?" You know why I'm angry. The only context under which "why are you angry" is even a sensical question is one where the thing I'm angry about isn't worth being angry about . Which is also to…

If someone stole your car and you tell me that, then I know why are you angry. My question is about a situation when I see you being angry and I don't know the reason why. >"How would you respond to my hypothetical rant above, where someone has stolen my car?" Who knows ... perhaps: "That fucking asshole. Look! Here he comes ... Let's kick his ass!"

You say: "Hey that must suck, is there anything I can do to help?" or if you genuinely can't figure it out ask a question about the bit you don't understand: "Let me get this right, someone stole your car and now you're late for a meeting?"

But be careful about asking questions which seem accusatory: "Did you leave your keys in your car? That would be pretty stupid"

Equivalent hypothetical statements in the realm of sexism/discrimination might be: "That sucks, is there anything I can do to help?" or if you're genuinely curious to learn more: "That sounds awful. You've raised some good points, are there any resources I can read so I can further understand?" but don't say: "You weren't wearing those hot-pants were you? That would be pretty stupid"

Re: Things I Never, Ever Want to Hear Again

#37
post #35
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is written like a helpful suggestion, but the subtext—"stop whining", "women helping women", "blame men"—reads as though you just don't want it to be your problem. You don't disagree that women are marginalized, but you still tell them to just go bootstrap themselves and accuse them of playing the victim. There are plenty of women running programs designed to help other women in the tech sector, but you…

> ... reads as though you just don't want it to be your problem. Actually, as a matter of fact, it isn't my problem . Women have rights, freedom, and 60% of the money in society. All they need to do is stop whining, stop listening to negative voices from inside and outside their own community, and choose another approach. > Can men just stop being dicks to women? Ah, yes, the default feminist agenda -- it's all the f…

Thank Goddess you weren't around during the American Civil War so you could make a huge show of NOT participating as a white member of the Underground Railroad because the plight of black slaves just wasn't your fucking problem.

Allow me to use the power you think I have to say: fuck you, thanks for nothing, jerk face. If it's "not your problem" then you are actively increasing my problems.

All my educators were men. Everyone in my chain of command from manager to CEO are men. About 90% of my industry peers are men. If they were all anti-woman then WHAT GODDAM POWER WOULD I HAVE? But they're not. Some of them even go so far as to acknowledge the general state of inequality might be within THEIR power to influence. And so here I am: a woman with a computer science degree, working information security, because not only did some men choose not to use their power to block me from getting a foothold, THEY DECIDED TO BE ACTIVELY FEMINIST and help me pull through when the misogynists were telling me to kill myself because I was a worthless slut and actively trying to prevent my career from ever starting with harassment, degradation, and slander.

Maybe I'm not your problem. But if you are just gonna kick back and relax and let misogyny sort itself out then you. are. mine.

Re: Things I Never, Ever Want to Hear Again

#38
post #35
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is written like a helpful suggestion, but the subtext—"stop whining", "women helping women", "blame men"—reads as though you just don't want it to be your problem. You don't disagree that women are marginalized, but you still tell them to just go bootstrap themselves and accuse them of playing the victim. There are plenty of women running programs designed to help other women in the tech sector, but you…

> ... reads as though you just don't want it to be your problem. Actually, as a matter of fact, it isn't my problem . Women have rights, freedom, and 60% of the money in society. All they need to do is stop whining, stop listening to negative voices from inside and outside their own community, and choose another approach. > Can men just stop being dicks to women? Ah, yes, the default feminist agenda -- it's all the f…

> Actually, as a matter of fact, it isn't my problem.

> The problem is obviously slave owners, who will rationalize their behavior as they continue to oppress you

I'm glad we're on the same page here.

Re: Things I Never, Ever Want to Hear Again

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's worth looking at why more men enter the field. I think it's also worth looking at why the participation of women in computer science in particular, as opposed to other technical fields, decreased on a relative basis after initial increases.[1] [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/16/business/16digi.html?_r=0

I'd wager that it's a variety of factors that are mostly cultural.

It is. Here’s the science of why by Heidi Grant Halvorson PhD citing research by Carol Dweck PhD. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-science-success/2011...

Re: Things I Never, Ever Want to Hear Again

#40
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... reads as though you just don't want it to be your problem. Actually, as a matter of fact, it isn't my problem . Women have rights, freedom, and 60% of the money in society. All they need to do is stop whining, stop listening to negative voices from inside and outside their own community, and choose another approach. > Can men just stop being dicks to women? Ah, yes, the default feminist agenda -- it's all the f…

Thank Goddess you weren't around during the American Civil War so you could make a huge show of NOT participating as a white member of the Underground Railroad because the plight of black slaves just wasn't your fucking problem. Allow me to use the power you think I have to say: fuck you, thanks for nothing, jerk face. If it's "not your problem" then you are actively increasing my problems. All my educators were men.…

> fuck you, thanks for nothing, jerk face.

Very constructive. The above is why this is your problem, not mine. Only one of us lives in civilization.

> If it's "not your problem" then you are actively increasing my problems.

And you are a career victim. Every woman alive, along with her legitimate burdens, has to bear the pointless weight of your infantile sexism and ignorance.

> Maybe I'm not your problem. But if you are just gonna kick back and relax ...

For the record, I've contributed over a million dollars to feminist causes over the years -- NARAL, Planned Parenthood, others. I singlehandedly started and supported a women's health clinic in a rural location that desperately needed it. As a result, I received regular death threats from the men in that town, but every time I heard from women (the beneficiaries) about that project, I got to hear how I wasn't doing enough, how they needed more from their white male oppressors. Finally, after years of the same, I gave up. I realized I was dealing with perpetual voluntary infants.

And I wonder if you even know what you sound like. Women asked for the vote and got the vote. Women asked for civil rights and got civil rights. Women's status has improved to the degree that they control the majority of public and private financial resources. But instead of accepting personal responsibility like grown-ups, they continue to act like petulant children -- "Fix it, daddy!"

In 2013, the real sexists are women. Men can be retrained away from stone-age attitudes, for the best possible reason -- it's in their interest. But some women have to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into a position of adult personal responsibility. Unfortunately, in public fora like this one, those particular women, even though the minority, tend to be heard out of all proportion to their actual numbers, and they end up drowning out the voices of those who would instead say, "I'm ready to deal with reality on its own terms."

The problem is not that women won't that no for an answer, those days are justly behind us. The problem is women won't take yes for an answer. No matter how many times women's demands are met in full, one quickly hears more demands, all calculated to shift women's legitimate burdens onto men.

Women have the majority of the money, they have full civil rights, they enjoy the fruits of a century of "yes, yes, whatever you say, yes!" It's time for women to stop whining about how badly they're being treated and accept personal responsibility.

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