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Nearly a fifth of scientists are considering abandoning the U.S.

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Re: Nearly a fifth of scientists are considering abandoning the U.S.

#31

Post by vwinsyee »

ArbitraryLimits wrote: post #21

Aren't more than a fifth of PhD holders in the U.S. foreign born? The story of immigrants returning home is a lot different from a story of native-born Americans abandoning their country.

You're right that many doctorates in the U.S. are foreign born. And that makes this article even more alarming.

The problem is that since WWII, the vast majority of these foreign born scientists in the US tended to stay and become naturalized U.S. citizens. It was uncommon, if not rare, for them to leave. In fact, there were waitlists for scientists trying to immigrate _into_ the U.S.

The reason for this was very much economic. The U.S., the leader in scientific spending over many decades after WWII, could pay scientists more than how much their home countries could pay. I should also note that in the past, the U.S. was also much more accomodating toward foreign born scientists in regard to naturalization, as well as popular attitude.

Now on every other bulletin board in my building, there're flyers in Chinese advertising very well-paid positions in China, and I get to read about the growing percentage of climate change deniers and creationists in the U.S almost every other week in the NY Times.

Re: Nearly a fifth of scientists are considering abandoning the U.S.

#32

Post by jjoonathan »

beloch wrote: post #29

It's not just economics. The key to excellence in science is to attract the best, keep the best, and give them what they need to do their best. Researchers start out as grad-students, and the U.S. is a lot less friendly to foreign students than it used to be. Whether it's increased trouble with permits or being treated like terrorists by the TSA, fewer foreign grad students are staying in the U.S.. Many students cons…

Attracting the best, keeping the best, and giving them what they need is economics.

If we don't have a sputnik moment and reverse this trend in the next decade or two, I suspect that in 50 years we'll find ourselves wondering why the next (multi)-trillion-dollar-a-year industry and its silicon valley weren't located in the USA. By then it will be too late.

Re: Nearly a fifth of scientists are considering abandoning the U.S.

#33

Post by vwinsyee »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #25
ArbitraryLimits wrote: post #21

Aren't more than a fifth of PhD holders in the U.S. foreign born? The story of immigrants returning home is a lot different from a story of native-born Americans abandoning their country.

It isn't like that at all. The funding picture has changed dramatically in the last few years. Back in 2003 the NIH success rate was around 30 %, if your idea wasn't too stupid you could count on your getting funded for the next five years. Now it's less than 10 %. If you are not at MIT or Caltech you might consider not even applying. Folks, we are looking at the end of an empire.

Hey, you know, I hear that [0] http://report.nih.gov/success_rates/ [1] http://report.nih.gov/DisplayRePORT.aspx?rid=601

Re: Nearly a fifth of scientists are considering abandoning the U.S.

#34

Post by eli_gottlieb »

beloch wrote: post #29

It's not just economics. The key to excellence in science is to attract the best, keep the best, and give them what they need to do their best. Researchers start out as grad-students, and the U.S. is a lot less friendly to foreign students than it used to be. Whether it's increased trouble with permits or being treated like terrorists by the TSA, fewer foreign grad students are staying in the U.S.. Many students cons…

Researchers start out as grad-students, and even American-born grad-students now despair of ever finding real research jobs in the USA.

Re: Nearly a fifth of scientists are considering abandoning the U.S.

#35

Post by mattzito »

batbomb wrote: post #6
mattzito wrote: post #3

I agree with the idea that we should invest more in scientific research in this country. But the 18% considering leaving the country metric is insane. This is like the percentage of people who claimed they were moving to Canada when Bush was reelected, and the percentage of people who said they were leaving the country when Obama was (re)elected. People talk big all the time when they're unhappy about something. EDIT…

Except for the fact that, you know, a move by a scientist would likely be a career move, and not through some misguided knee-jerk reaction. I work at a national lab. Half my coworkers, maybe more, are foreign. If we all got laid off, you could easily bet they'd go back to europe. If I got laid off, I'd either look for a different industry or look to Europe. I know several places I could drop into in Europe with a bet…

I'm not disagreeing with the fundamental point you're making: obviously a skilled professional is not just going to throw their hands up and bail for no reason.

But I think that highly skilled professionals of all stripes grapple with frustration and consider changing locales, industries, etc. - and not that many actually do.

I work in the tech industry in NY, and the number of times people I know (myself included) have said, "Man, the tech market here is (boring/too adtech based/too corporate/not worth the cost of living), we should move to (the bay area/austin/the middle of nowhere/the caribbean)" is huge. Very few of us have actually moved, because you become invested in a particular place, you like your lifestyle, you fear change, etc.

Again, not that scientists can't leave - but the article (and the HN headline) throws up the statistic of 18% considering leaving like it means something tangible.

Re: Nearly a fifth of scientists are considering abandoning the U.S.

#36

Post by mattzito »

pyre wrote: post #17
mattzito wrote: post #3

I agree with the idea that we should invest more in scientific research in this country. But the 18% considering leaving the country metric is insane. This is like the percentage of people who claimed they were moving to Canada when Bush was reelected, and the percentage of people who said they were leaving the country when Obama was (re)elected. People talk big all the time when they're unhappy about something. EDIT…

> the percentage of people who said they were leaving the country when Obama was (re)elected. I don't get this. Most of these people were presumably conservatives, that were unhappy with Obama's election, but at the same time, most of their ideological/political views would seem incompatible with living anywhere other than the US. [ I realize that this is probably horrible stereotyping, but I would be interested to t…

It is mostly a twitter joke that idiots said, along the lines with the (fairly small as an actual percentage of the american populace) who said, "Keep government out of my medicare!" (medicare is a government healthcare program).

I was being more tongue in cheek than anything.

Re: Nearly a fifth of scientists are considering abandoning the U.S.

#37

Post by vwinsyee »

pyre wrote: post #17
mattzito wrote: post #3

I agree with the idea that we should invest more in scientific research in this country. But the 18% considering leaving the country metric is insane. This is like the percentage of people who claimed they were moving to Canada when Bush was reelected, and the percentage of people who said they were leaving the country when Obama was (re)elected. People talk big all the time when they're unhappy about something. EDIT…

> the percentage of people who said they were leaving the country when Obama was (re)elected. I don't get this. Most of these people were presumably conservatives, that were unhappy with Obama's election, but at the same time, most of their ideological/political views would seem incompatible with living anywhere other than the US. [ I realize that this is probably horrible stereotyping, but I would be interested to t…

I remember having the same reaction, especially after hearing many conservatives "considering" emigration to Canada, a nation much more socialist and tolerant than the U.S.

Re: Nearly a fifth of scientists are considering abandoning the U.S.

#38

Post by eli_gottlieb »

gwern wrote: post #27
wtallis wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's easier to not be alarmed about foreign-born PhDs returning home (if that is indeed where they go when they leave the us) than if it were US natives leaving, but I'm not sure that it's really that much less worrisome. Either way, smart people are deciding that they can earn a better life with their skills in a different country. If it's foreign-born PhDs returning home, it really only says that the native…

> I think it's easier to not be alarmed about foreign-born PhDs returning home (if that is indeed where they go when they leave the us) than if it were US natives leaving, but I'm not sure that it's really that much less worrisome. It is a very different situation, and the meaningfulness is likewise different. For a foreign-born PhD holder, they have family back there, they'll become bigger fish in a smaller pond, th…

When you hear of a lot of American scientists leaving America permanently, then it's time to start panicking.

I got the hell out of the USA to go to grad school.

One thing that really helped is that when I visited one of my two grad-school options, the one inside the USA, the current grad-students told me there was no hope of ever getting a permanent research position, and that we could all expect to just drift from post-doc to post-doc before being discarded.

And this was a very good department for the field we were discussing. I adore these guys and their research.

At Technion, not only my advisor but other graduate students seem to feel they can safely assume they'll eventually find a well-paying industrial, academic, or governmental job with a Technion grad degree.

So, yeah, funny thing, making aliyah may well have been a good career move, which basically never happens. Oh, and speaking of antisemitic graffiti, once when I visited my cosmopolitan college town of Amherst, I found neo-Nazi graffiti about the Protocols of the Elders of Zion on an alley wall, and learned that UMass Amherst has a secret neo-Nazi club.

Be a little bit afraid.

Re: Nearly a fifth of scientists are considering abandoning the U.S.

#39

Post by beloch »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #34
beloch wrote: post #29

It's not just economics. The key to excellence in science is to attract the best, keep the best, and give them what they need to do their best. Researchers start out as grad-students, and the U.S. is a lot less friendly to foreign students than it used to be. Whether it's increased trouble with permits or being treated like terrorists by the TSA, fewer foreign grad students are staying in the U.S.. Many students cons…

Researchers start out as grad-students, and even American-born grad-students now despair of ever finding real research jobs in the USA.

That's common in most countries these days with very few exceptions. What few post-doc positions exist are viewed as a transitory positions and aren't very well paid (considering the qualifications required). If you want to do pure research without moving around the world constantly you can just forget about it! Either you get on the tenure-track or you go into industry and figure out how to steal money on the stock-exchange or make people click on banner-ads. Unfortunately, there just aren't that many tenured positions available.

You're probably a technocrat. I'm one too. I firmly believe the U.S. would be far better off if they shut down the NSA entirely and sank those billions into pure, curiosity driven research. Unfortunately, we are a tiny, tiny minority. Most people are very risk-averse and would rather guard a hovel than build a mansion!

Re: Nearly a fifth of scientists are considering abandoning the U.S.

#40

Post by cauthonLuck »

gwern wrote: post #27
wtallis wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's easier to not be alarmed about foreign-born PhDs returning home (if that is indeed where they go when they leave the us) than if it were US natives leaving, but I'm not sure that it's really that much less worrisome. Either way, smart people are deciding that they can earn a better life with their skills in a different country. If it's foreign-born PhDs returning home, it really only says that the native…

> I think it's easier to not be alarmed about foreign-born PhDs returning home (if that is indeed where they go when they leave the us) than if it were US natives leaving, but I'm not sure that it's really that much less worrisome. It is a very different situation, and the meaningfulness is likewise different. For a foreign-born PhD holder, they have family back there, they'll become bigger fish in a smaller pond, th…

I'm an American born graduate student in Chemistry lab at an R1 school and the funding landscape has been a very hot topic throughout the department. No tenured professors have said they would move, but we probably wouldn't receive that information until they had already made the decision (as was the case with my boss and switching schools).

Once I am done with graduate school I will be considering employment at a university oversees that appreciates it's scientists.

And it wouldn't be as difficult for many of these tenured professors to make the transition. They all collaborate with researchers oversees. They already have all the connections needed. Furthermore, the institutions over there would jump at opportunities to poach them.

Moving across the globe isn't nearly as difficult these days as it would have been in the 1930s.

And if moving across the globe would've fixed Americans' problems during the Great Depression I doubt they would've hesitated.

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