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Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

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Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#31

Post by bengrunfeld »

LoganCale wrote: post #28
bengrunfeld wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but this isn't just about teeny-boppers posting pics of themselves partaking in underage drinking on Facebook. This is about journalists being intimidated by government representatives if they start writing an article on their private computer that is embarrassing to a particular senator. Sorry, but that's in a totally different baseball league.

I agree absolutely. But try explaining that to people whose immediate response to this every time it comes up is "I ain't got nothing to hide, if Obama wants to read my texts he can go ahead and be bored."

LoganCale, get them to watch the movie Brazil and then read 1984, and for good measure hit them with a copy of Animal Farm just for the heck of it.

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#32

Post by morpher »

mcphilip wrote: post #12

Cue praise from the majority of the main stream media that only tens of thousands of communications are improperly monitored since there are roughly 150 billion emails sent per day (globally). The surveillance program will be declared a stunning success and most people will agree since they are impressed by small percentages. The error rate being so low will imply, to most people, that the NSA is painstakingly concer…

Why are you less impressed by small percentages than by numbers that are large only in the absence of a reference scale? It's generally not possible to design flawless systems, and failure rate a much more meaningful number.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#33

Post by bengrunfeld »

snowwrestler wrote: post #29
throwawaykf02 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hasn't "Freedom of Speech" always been about public speech? You alluded to it yourself when you said "freedom or the press". I don't see what invasion of privacy has to do with freedom of speech as the constitution means it.

And this is the crux of the matter. Technology today allows intrusions into our privacy that do not harm our ability to speak publicly. In the 1700s, the only way for the government to read your papers was to take them away from you--harming your use of them. Today they can extract the entire contents without disturbing your use at all. Reading and restriction have been separated. It's a new situation and there will…

I completely disagree. Please see my response below, and failing that, search Wikipedia for "Freedom of Speech", and then search the page (Cmd + F) for "privacy".

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#34

Post by rayiner »

morpher wrote: post #32
mcphilip wrote: post #12

Cue praise from the majority of the main stream media that only tens of thousands of communications are improperly monitored since there are roughly 150 billion emails sent per day (globally). The surveillance program will be declared a stunning success and most people will agree since they are impressed by small percentages. The error rate being so low will imply, to most people, that the NSA is painstakingly concer…

Why are you less impressed by small percentages than by numbers that are large only in the absence of a reference scale? It's generally not possible to design flawless systems, and failure rate a much more meaningful number.

Because when it comes to this topic, normally sensible nerds throw out their good engineering sensibility.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#35

Post by droopyEyelids »

ihsw wrote: post #13
jnbiche wrote: post #6

Two things are bothering me immensely: 1. Each time something increasingly worse about the NSA surveillance gets revealed, or confirmed, Sens. Wyden and Udall release a statement saying something like: "This is only the tip of the iceberg: if Americans only knew how bad it was, they'd be very angry." They're on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and so are in a position to know at least more than their colleagues, an…

> Is all of congress tapped? All the governors? Snowden hinted at this. What the fuck is going on in my country? I'm going to assume the worst, which would be that the NSA is used as a tool of blackmail by nefarious parties whom the NSA relies on. Key House and Senate members put in a good word for the NSA and then they get some "free" information on their opponents, at which point they convince their opponents to "t…

You're adding an extra step, unnecessarily complicating your idea.

The blackmail information doesn't need to be passed to a third party. It can be brought directly to bear on problematic government officials by the NSA.

All they would need to do is make the senator understand that a record of all correspondence and browsing history exists.

Considering about 5% of the population has some pedophilic tendency, and estimates are around 10% of people have an incest fetish, 10% of people are estimated to be gay yet only Tammy Baldwin is out in the senate, lots of successful people do drugs, and everyone else has tons of relatives who may or may not have those problems, you can not underestimate the power wielded by someone with access to all our communications.

It's too great a power to comprehend. And someone wouldn't even have to be consciously doing ill to exploit it. I imagine that anyone in the position would believe they're protecting the USA from terrorism, and righteously punishing the deviants by leveraging their 'sins' while unconsciously building the infrastructure for future tyranny.

Furthermore, I've only listed the problems I think could be discovered through software. We aren't getting into conspiracy theory stuff like what would happen if you put a secret team of 10 analysts and 20 lawyers to work for a year looking to find laws broken by the members of the legislative branch. I mean, Hoover has been dead for a while, right?

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#36

Post by jnbiche »

argumentum wrote: post #27
jnbiche wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course I did. My stand is this: what the US needs now, possibly more than any time before in its history, is for the full extent of the surveillance and other activities by the NSA and other IC members to be revealed to the public. What happens next year in the Senate Intelligence Committee is much less important.

How are you so sure they know as much (or the same info) as Snowden/Greenwald et al. will eventually release? If they don't, there is no value in getting kicked out of the committee, as they may get insights that we aren't going to get from whistleblowers. How do you know they aren't playing Lincoln to your Thaddeus Stevens?

If you're referring to Lincoln vs. Thaddeus Stevens on slavery, then I'd respond that things may have turned much better, particularly for Americans of African descent, if Stevens had got his way.

I do appreciate the strategic thinking behind your suggestion that Snowden or Greenwald may eventually reveal what they are obliquely referring to. My personal opinion is that Greenwald led with his strongest story -- I don't think they have much more. But I have nothing to back that up. But clearly Wyden and Udall have a whole lot more.

In the end, I'm the type of person who believes that their oath to the constitution supercedes any strategic concerns.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#37

Post by argumentum »

jnbiche wrote: post #23
LoganCale wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their committee appointment is important to us, not just them. It's better to have a few allies on these committees, even if their hands are tied, than to have none at all. They've done more than most have been able to do, including calling out NSA lies.

I strongly disagree, but I respect that we're on the same side here, so I'll very carefully consider your logic. But in return, I'd ask you to carefully consider my argument, which is that we need to know the current damage right now far more than we need allies in the Senate IC in the future.

If what they can give us "right now" won't win us the war, we lose a valuable resource to win the war over the long term. Afaik, these are two of the few principled people with power in the legislature .. let's give them the benefit of the doubt.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#38

Post by bengrunfeld »

jnbiche wrote: post #6

Two things are bothering me immensely: 1. Each time something increasingly worse about the NSA surveillance gets revealed, or confirmed, Sens. Wyden and Udall release a statement saying something like: "This is only the tip of the iceberg: if Americans only knew how bad it was, they'd be very angry." They're on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and so are in a position to know at least more than their colleagues, an…

I think right now making noise in any way is a respectable move. If they go to far, then NSA might retaliate against them, and no legal protection in the world would save them. If they keep going the way they are right now, it will keep this issue in the public eye, which is exactly where it needs to be. Yes, the system is totally fucked, but give them credit for having the balls to say something at all.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#39

Post by argumentum »

jnbiche wrote: post #36
argumentum wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you so sure they know as much (or the same info) as Snowden/Greenwald et al. will eventually release? If they don't, there is no value in getting kicked out of the committee, as they may get insights that we aren't going to get from whistleblowers. How do you know they aren't playing Lincoln to your Thaddeus Stevens?

If you're referring to Lincoln vs. Thaddeus Stevens on slavery, then I'd respond that things may have turned much better, particularly for Americans of African descent, if Stevens had got his way. I do appreciate the strategic thinking behind your suggestion that Snowden or Greenwald may eventually reveal what they are obliquely referring to. My personal opinion is that Greenwald led with his strongest story -- I don…

We will need Lincoln and Stevens to win this war, much like both (idealists and principled operators) were essential to defeating Slavery.

"In the end, I'm the type of person who believes that their oath to the constitution supercedes any strategic concerns."

What if they think the best way to defend the Constitution is to behave strategically and marshall their power for the best possible outcome. That seems reasonable to me.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#40

Post by olefoo »

jnbiche wrote: post #6

Two things are bothering me immensely: 1. Each time something increasingly worse about the NSA surveillance gets revealed, or confirmed, Sens. Wyden and Udall release a statement saying something like: "This is only the tip of the iceberg: if Americans only knew how bad it was, they'd be very angry." They're on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and so are in a position to know at least more than their colleagues, an…

Wyden & Udall are constrained by their roles within the system; they have both been trying to encourage people to ask the right questions, but they are not going to break the laws they are sworn to uphold.

What we need is an independent congressional commission with the power to unilaterally declassify information that is not directly related to ongoing operations ( i.e. anything naming specific operatives or live intelligence about events now in the field would be exempt. But descriptions of scope, and summary reports of the outcomes of programs would be allowed. ) so that the American public can get an idea of what is being done in it's name.

This commission to include in it's scope psychological warfare operations and propaganda directed at American audiences. And a full investigation of any information sharing regarding American citizens with other agencies of the Executive branch.

We need this now. These stains on our nations honor can only be cleaned by sunlight.

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