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U.K. Government Thought Destroying Guardian Hard Drives Would Stop Stories

washingtonpost.com

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Re: U.K. Government Thought Destroying Guardian Hard Drives Would Stop Stories

#31

Post by oceanstone »

snitko wrote: post #29
oceanstone wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax evasion isn't a good way to protest. If it were, you'd see a lot of people jumping on that bandwagon, just so they could have more money at the end of the year! Imagine that being pitched on a shareholder's meeting. "This fiscal year... we are going to protest our taxes. We project a 30% increase in profits."

It's not a good way to protest and people don't jump on that bandwagon simply because government is gonna make their lives very very unpleasant. That's why I say that I wouldn't advocate it - it is immoral to demand from people that they complicate their lives by engaging into a fight with IRS or whatever your tax agency is in your country. But essentially, taxes are forced payments. If it wasn't so, I guarantee you,…

You bring up an interesting idea. What if taxes were completely voluntary... would anyone pay them? Would anyone elect to pay sales tax if it were not required? I feel like the world might resemble Mad Max if this were the case.

Re: U.K. Government Thought Destroying Guardian Hard Drives Would Stop Stories

#32

Post by snitko »

oceanstone wrote: post #31
snitko wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a good way to protest and people don't jump on that bandwagon simply because government is gonna make their lives very very unpleasant. That's why I say that I wouldn't advocate it - it is immoral to demand from people that they complicate their lives by engaging into a fight with IRS or whatever your tax agency is in your country. But essentially, taxes are forced payments. If it wasn't so, I guarantee you,…

You bring up an interesting idea. What if taxes were completely voluntary... would anyone pay them? Would anyone elect to pay sales tax if it were not required? I feel like the world might resemble Mad Max if this were the case.

If taxes were voluntary, they wouldn't be taxes anymore, but rather payments for services. No one would have to elect anybody - not more so than we need to elect officials who decide which car everyone should buy - people would just start paying to service providers they like (includes police, fire department, education, law and yes, roads). As soon as this service provider stops doing a good job, people would stop paying. That would be a real accountability tied to actual profit, not to some vague promise by a government official who doesn't give a shit after he's elected.

And of course, the usual question - but what about the poor who can't afford it? Well, if a democratic system means that the majority of people agree that helping the poor is a good idea, I see nothing impossible in those very same people giving money to charities voluntarily, without any system forcing them to. Except that in a voluntary system the charities are also much more accountable than a government, because as soon as this charity fails to deliver what was promised, people stop donating.

Re: U.K. Government Thought Destroying Guardian Hard Drives Would Stop Stories

#33

Post by pinaceae »

jlgreco wrote: post #24
pinaceae wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

oh yes absolutely. just like the Gestapo. and the NKWD. i mean this is like a photocopy. sending people to concentration camps/gulags, murdering families. it is so 1:1 it is downright scary. you're so brave. so brave.

boi_v2 noted a similarity between specific actions. No reasonably intelligent adult could read his comment and come to the conclusion that he thinks they are gassing Jews; the exaggeration is your own. Take your "bravery" bullshit back to reddit.

bullshit. you don't bring up the specific example of the gestapo for comparison on how they filed their reports. his intent was to align the current actions of the UK/US intelligence services with the Gestapo, conjuring a very specific image.

which is laughable in the very redditesque way you just brought up.

Re: U.K. Government Thought Destroying Guardian Hard Drives Would Stop Stories

#34

Post by jlgreco »

pinaceae wrote: post #33
jlgreco wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

boi_v2 noted a similarity between specific actions. No reasonably intelligent adult could read his comment and come to the conclusion that he thinks they are gassing Jews; the exaggeration is your own. Take your "bravery" bullshit back to reddit.

bullshit. you don't bring up the specific example of the gestapo for comparison on how they filed their reports. his intent was to align the current actions of the UK/US intelligence services with the Gestapo, conjuring a very specific image. which is laughable in the very redditesque way you just brought up.

"Bullshit" yourself.

> "sending people to concentration camps/gulags, murdering families."

Those are things you said, not him. You uncharitably read an absurd statement of equivalence where he merely made a comparison.

The refusal to see parallels or accept comparisons to dark periods in recent history unless they are 100% equivalent is a disease that threatens our ability to learn lessons from the past. If we only accept comparisons to the Gestapo when they begin gassing people en-masse, then it is too late.

Re: U.K. Government Thought Destroying Guardian Hard Drives Would Stop Stories

#35

Post by pinaceae »

jlgreco wrote: post #34
pinaceae wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

bullshit. you don't bring up the specific example of the gestapo for comparison on how they filed their reports. his intent was to align the current actions of the UK/US intelligence services with the Gestapo, conjuring a very specific image. which is laughable in the very redditesque way you just brought up.

"Bullshit" yourself. > "sending people to concentration camps/gulags, murdering families." Those are things you said, not him. You uncharitably read an absurd statement of equivalence where he merely made a comparison. The refusal to see parallels or accept comparisons to dark periods in recent history unless they are 100% equivalent is a disease that threatens our ability to learn lessons from the past. If we only a…

so if someone mentions the Gestapo they explicitely do not mean to bring up the overall context of the third reich, gotcha.

i am an austrian of polish decent. for me bringing up the fucking nazis in this context is completely laughable.

the securitate? maybe. the stasi? same. but only internet nerd rage immediately brings up nazis, fascism, etc. the whole discussion here at HN is an exercise in hyperbolic bullshit.

Re: U.K. Government Thought Destroying Guardian Hard Drives Would Stop Stories

#36

Post by boi_v2 »

pinaceae wrote: post #12
boi_v2 wrote: post #4

Sounds quite similar to me. "As Gestapo chief of operations and later (after 1939) its chief, Müller played a leading role in the detection and suppression of all forms of resistance to the Nazi regime.[12] Under his leadership, the Gestapo succeeded in infiltrating and to a large extent destroying the underground networks of the Communist Party and the Social Democratic Party by the end of 1935." http://en.wikipedia…

oh yes absolutely. just like the Gestapo. and the NKWD. i mean this is like a photocopy. sending people to concentration camps/gulags, murdering families. it is so 1:1 it is downright scary. you're so brave. so brave.

My point was to emphasise the similarities between the text and what is actually happening. The text talks about how Gestapo suppressed all forms of resistance and how they've done that by destroying the network of communications of these resistances, a quite alarming similarity that in my opinion has to be observed.

Re: U.K. Government Thought Destroying Guardian Hard Drives Would Stop Stories

#37

Post by youngtaff »

beedogs wrote: post #10
oceanstone wrote: post #9

What goods or services could be boycotted, to protest these actions by the British Gestapo? Largest UK companies (that seemed recognizable): HSBC, Shell, BP, Royal Bank of Scotland, Barclays, GlaxoSmithKline, Unilever, Vodafone, Anglo American (thought the name was funny for a huge British company), Prudential, Coldplay Edit: Added services Edit 2: Added list of largest UK companies Edit 3: Added Coldplay

Does the UK actually make anything anymore? I thought they were like the US and had become a "service-based" economy. I guess you could boycott visiting.

Cars, loads of them and we even export cars built by Japanese car companies to Japan

Re: U.K. Government Thought Destroying Guardian Hard Drives Would Stop Stories

#38

Post by youngtaff »

nwp90 wrote: post #5

I don't think there's any indication that they actually thought destroying the hard drives would stop anything; seems more likely that: 1) They didn't want anyone else to get access to the material that the Guardian had but would not end up publishing; 2) The rules said that that's what they had to do, so they did it; 3) That's all they could do on "their patch", so CYA; 4) A little intimidation would never go amiss,…

I see the drives being destroyed as a compromise i.e. spooks wanted them, Guardian refused, so a they agreed to destroy them instead.

I sense the Guardian piece doesn't tell the whole story.

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