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The Tech Community Must Invest More In San Francisco

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Re: The Tech Community Must Invest More In San Francisco

#31

Post by cenhyperion »

antr wrote: post #11
joejohnson wrote: post #3

From the quoted LA Times piece: "Unlike in previous booms, the tech industry isn’t creating as many middle-class jobs..." I don't believe this. There are tons of Software Engineer jobs paying around 80-100k in SF. That salary, in that city, puts you firmly in the middle class. However, I agree with this piece. The tech companies and the people of San Francisco as a whole need to really change things. A big part of th…

You make a great point, but would you agree with the following?: There are tons of Finance jobs paying around 80-100k in NY. That salary, in that city, puts you firmly in the middle class. Is this now (perceived as) middle class?

Yes. That's definitely middle class. Especially living in an expensive area like San Francisco.

Re: The Tech Community Must Invest More In San Francisco

#32

Post by cenhyperion »

jseliger wrote: post #26
stfsbrb wrote: post #14

Articles like this one always seem to imply that the techies are all sitting comfortably with a giant money vault like Scrooge McDuck, laughing at everyone else and refusing to share. That just isn't the case. In reality, few of them actually have any real financial security. Most work for startups that are living on borrowed time and may not be here in a year or two. Few of them own any real assets such as real esta…

Articles like this one always seem to imply that the techies are all sitting comfortably with a giant money vault like Scrooge McDuck, laughing at everyone else and refusing to share. Articles like this one also ignore the simple, obvious solution: remove height restrictions and mandatory parking minimums. Developers will build up, supply will increase, and housing costs will fall. The problem is that many of the sam…

See the same problem in Austin, Texas. People that have lived here forever (justifiably) aren't thrilled with the fact that rent has gone way up as a result of the city's boom. But the very same people actively oppose the construction of new housing.

I really don't think people understand that if the demand increases, the way to keep the cost form increasing as much is to increase the supply.

Re: The Tech Community Must Invest More In San Francisco

#33

Post by OvidNaso »

vinceguidry wrote: post #6
SurfScore wrote: post #4

I've lived all over the country, and I've never seen such a big divide between two groups (wealthy tech and everyone else) as I have in the Bay Area. The last time I was there, I realized why most of the protests for economic reform and "the 1%" are so strong in the Bay Area: because it is so blatantly thrown in people's faces! The streets are filled with Porsches and Teslas driving by the many homeless people in SF…

> The streets are filled with Porsches and Teslas driving by the many homeless people in SF everyday. One might argue that the homeless people wouldn't be there if the fabulous wealth weren't also there. That they can even be there should be a testament to the city's tolerance. In many places, local government does everything they can to remove them. SF has much more social conscience than a lot of people give it cre…

Portland treats the homeless well and its definitely not due to fabulous wealth.

The homeless are not who we should focus on when talking about wealth inequality. Even though it makes a good visual, there are too many other factors at play such as mental illness.

It's the working poor and the rich that are the true divide.

Re: The Tech Community Must Invest More In San Francisco

#34

Post by pekk »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #21
seiji wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suggestions on how we could pull that off are welcome. That's the problem, isn't it? Is such a thing even accomplishable? We're teetering on an edge. We don't know if we are creating a future of clean and shiny and modern technology for everybody or if we're creating a dirty and scarred and run down begging-for-please-schedule-me-doctor services for non-millionares in society. More technological improvements are need…

Yes it is (the problem). In one future the world is ruled by corporations, public services such as internet, medical care, and transportation are provided by them as long as you follow their rules. In one future the governments seize corporate earnings through taxation to fund basic services resulting in a incestuous and tense symbiotic relationship between companies and governments. Depending on which side of the be…

Corporations are already paying taxes pretty much the world over, for a very long time now. Why characterize this normal, standard, nearly universal policy as "incestuous and tense"? Why is this "seizing" and not just normal tax paying?

Re: The Tech Community Must Invest More In San Francisco

#35

Post by bluekeybox »

newnewnew wrote: post #29

San Francisco needs an income tax. So many people enjoy the benefits of living in SF but pay little for its upkeep.

I moved to SF from Boston. The taxes in California are sky-high compared to most other states. Yet the environment (other than the weather, that is) is significantly worse. One has to wonder where all the public money is going.

Re: The Tech Community Must Invest More In San Francisco

#36

Post by ChuckMcM »

pekk wrote: post #34
ChuckMcM wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it is (the problem). In one future the world is ruled by corporations, public services such as internet, medical care, and transportation are provided by them as long as you follow their rules. In one future the governments seize corporate earnings through taxation to fund basic services resulting in a incestuous and tense symbiotic relationship between companies and governments. Depending on which side of the be…

Corporations are already paying taxes pretty much the world over, for a very long time now. Why characterize this normal, standard, nearly universal policy as "incestuous and tense"? Why is this "seizing" and not just normal tax paying?

Heh, you missed the drama of the whole "fair share" taxes debate that Google, Apple, and others are embroiled in both in the UK and the US? How about the Amazon sales tax debate?

Corporations do pay taxes, governments around the world are girding themselves to demand they pay even more taxes. That was the 'tenseness' of which I spoke.

Re: The Tech Community Must Invest More In San Francisco

#37

Post by stretchwithme »

antr wrote: post #11
joejohnson wrote: post #3

From the quoted LA Times piece: "Unlike in previous booms, the tech industry isn’t creating as many middle-class jobs..." I don't believe this. There are tons of Software Engineer jobs paying around 80-100k in SF. That salary, in that city, puts you firmly in the middle class. However, I agree with this piece. The tech companies and the people of San Francisco as a whole need to really change things. A big part of th…

You make a great point, but would you agree with the following?: There are tons of Finance jobs paying around 80-100k in NY. That salary, in that city, puts you firmly in the middle class. Is this now (perceived as) middle class?

Its quite the middle class. Especially if you avail yourself of public transport and live out in Queens half an hour away.

Yes, its a great hardship to have to take the train. But thousands of people do it and have quite a comfortable life at 80 to 100K.

Re: The Tech Community Must Invest More In San Francisco

#38

Post by pnathan »

My perspective is that the tech community at large - quite some time ago - abdicated integrating into the rest of the world. I invite a careful read of Barlow's bombast[1] from the early '90s and consider how that has played out into today.

With the techie desire to remove politics and marketing and the overweening wish to be logical instead of emotional comes the abdication of dealing with the messy, compromising, and non-technical parts of the world and thus, the disengagement.

My one experience in SF was generally negative: homeless people were sleeping all over the sidewalks, and the beggars were aggressive. There was a great deal of wealth in evidence, but I didn't see the wealth translated into meaningful assistance.

I guess I would expect to see some sort of mission building in the area I was in where people could sleep & use restrooms and not be on the sidewalk.

Anyway, I think it's time the tech community grokked that the Internet is and is not a separate space and really got serious about engaging with the world (again).

[1] https://homes.eff.org/~barlow/Declaration-Final.html

Re: The Tech Community Must Invest More In San Francisco

#39

Post by toyg »

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #10
protomyth wrote: post #5

I am a little confused, not living in SF (visited once by accident in the 80's). If I read this right, most of the tech companies are not in SF, but the employees really like to live in SF. So, the tech companies bus their people on exclusive transportation to the tech company. Is part of the problem that the suburbs (that I would imagine benefit tax-wise) are not doing a good job at being an attractive place to live…

Its because lots of young people don't want to live in Silicon Valley proper (basically Santa Clara County to the south). Santa Clara County is heavily suburban, with some very poor areas mixed in with some very affluent areas (Los Gatos, Palo Alto, Los Altos Hills). I find it hard to believe that rent is higher in SF than Sunnyvale, for example-young people just want to have their cake and eat it too-high paying tec…

And why wouldn't they? Why should they be shackled to SV, considering the tenuous logistical and geographical requirements of their jobs?

I agree with parent, SV is missing a trick here: it doesn't need to be as soulless as it is.

Re: The Tech Community Must Invest More In San Francisco

#40

Post by simoncion »

bluekeybox wrote: post #35
newnewnew wrote: post #29

San Francisco needs an income tax. So many people enjoy the benefits of living in SF but pay little for its upkeep.

I moved to SF from Boston. The taxes in California are sky-high compared to most other states. Yet the environment (other than the weather, that is) is significantly worse. One has to wonder where all the public money is going.

A while back, I moved from Huntsville, AL to SF. HSV city sales tax + state sales tax brought the tax on everyday things to 8%. The SF + state sales tax is 9%. For that additional 1%, I get so much more than I got in the Southeast.

CA state income tax rates are up to 7.3% higher than AL's, BUT AL's maximum tax bracket is 5% of any taxable income over $3k. CA's maximum tax bracket is 12.3% of any income over $500k. If you're making $38k (or maybe $48k) or less, you're better off, tax-wise to be in CA. The 6% CA bracket starts at $27,897. [0][1]

[0] http://revenue.alabama.gov/incometax/itfaq01.cfm (Search for "income tax rates")

[1] https://www.ftb.ca.gov/forms/2012_california_tax_rates_and_e... (Search for "tax rate schedules")

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