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Your Thoughts Can Release Abilities Beyond Normal Limits

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Your Thoughts Can Release Abilities Beyond Normal Limits

#31
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you dare question a website with 'scientific' in the URL? I like your moxie. I recall reading something posted recently about how the way the grants in social sciences is set up ensures that you get a whole lot of papers that have a catchy 'truthy' hook to them, which will then get disseminated by the mainstream media and quickly forgotten. It basically turned the fields into little more than generators of soundbites…

> you dare question a website with 'scientific' in the URL? I like your moxie. Yep, I had a lot of nerve doing that. :) A while ago, in an article I noted that Wikipedia defined neuroscience as "the scientific study of the brain and nervous system", while psychology was defined as "the study of the mind, partly through the study of behavior." Within hours of my article's appearance someone inserted the word "scientif…

> So according to the Asperger contingent, focusing on a few activities, or just one, is a mental illness.

You chose to ignore the requirement of "significant difficulties in social interaction". These are also not the only diagnostic criteria.

When you make comments like this, it becomes very hard to take your other criticisms of psychology seriously, as it raises the question as to what else you're ignoring/leaving out or unaware of.

The entire point of a syndrome is that it is a grouping based on the presence of a certain set of required symptoms combined by some threshold of additional symptoms, rather than a clearly identifiable underlying cause.

Many individual symptoms of a syndrome can be perfectly normal on their own or even strong desirable at certain degrees, but become substantial problems for the individuals involved when combined together, or when the trait is too intense. There's in other words no contradiction between the positive treatment of grit vs. the description of Asperger syndrome as a disorder.

Re: Your Thoughts Can Release Abilities Beyond Normal Limits

#32
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a real thing. There appear to be intimate connections between the mind and the body, in both directions. Levels higher up the hierarchy of dynamical systems within an organism appear to direct the function of lower systems. It's feedback loops all the way down.

> There appear to be intimate connections between the mind and the body, in both directions. That may be true, but only one of those can be studied scientifically.

I'm not sure I follow. There's nothing mystical about the idea. The hypothesis is testable as shown by the research. The data currently looks to support it. I'm not sure why you are saying it is unscientific. I grant you there may be alternative explanations for the data, but it is often true that science has been lead astray by incorrect framing of the question, but it's still science...

Re: Your Thoughts Can Release Abilities Beyond Normal Limits

#33
I am a great fan of Napoleon Hill.

But my eyes always glazed over while listening to him talk about tapping into the "Infinite Intelligence".

If nothing else, I would like to thank this article for gently reminding me that I do not know everything there is to know about this universe.

Re: Your Thoughts Can Release Abilities Beyond Normal Limits

#34
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

explain in neuroscientific terms Isn't that putting the cart before the horse? The article draws attention to a phenomenon that isn't predicted by current theory. Before a predictive theory has been developed, there is even some censorship or bias risk in using neuroscientific terms.

>> explain in neuroscientific terms > Isn't that putting the cart before the horse? Not in science. In science, the explanation is both the cart and the horse. No explanation, no science. Einstein didn't win a Nobel Prize for noting that electrons are emitted by a metal surface, he won for explaining why they are emitted. Had Einstein been a psychologist, publishing the fact that electrons are emitted (for simply des…

In science, the explanation is both the cart and the horse.

I'm sorry, but no. Observation comes first, then hypotheses, then prediction, then verification. Explanations go from proposed to confirmed, but they are certainly not the genesis of scientific knowledge. The phenomenon itself must come first, otherwise all you have is the fitting of facts to theory.

So, we have observations w/out a coherent, compelling, or generally agreed-to theory. If and when a successful theory is developed, it will predict observations to date and predict more effects not yet observed or observed and ignored. Well, that sounds like a pretty exciting field of science, actually.

Re: Your Thoughts Can Release Abilities Beyond Normal Limits

#35
post #26
post #12

This is all about releasing the blocking mechanism that exists. I feel people like Eckhart Tolle have somehow mastered this, at least in the realm of the scope of abilities they are most comfortable being confined in.

Eckhart Tolle is pretty much repackaging meditation practises with a huge dose of new age nonsense. As such, there are certainly the odd kernel of useful stuff in there, but I'd recommend a decent introduction to meditation over Tolle any day.

Tolle’s work and meditative practice are not mutually exclusive nor in conflict with one another. His characterization of the human mind—how we create (mostly unintentionally, through conditioned habits) so much suffering and problems for ourselves—is spot on and very helpful for gaining an understanding of ourselves, imo.

Re: Your Thoughts Can Release Abilities Beyond Normal Limits

#36
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> explain in neuroscientific terms > Isn't that putting the cart before the horse? Not in science. In science, the explanation is both the cart and the horse. No explanation, no science. Einstein didn't win a Nobel Prize for noting that electrons are emitted by a metal surface, he won for explaining why they are emitted. Had Einstein been a psychologist, publishing the fact that electrons are emitted (for simply des…

In science, the explanation is both the cart and the horse. I'm sorry, but no. Observation comes first, then hypotheses, then prediction, then verification. Explanations go from proposed to confirmed, but they are certainly not the genesis of scientific knowledge. The phenomenon itself must come first, otherwise all you have is the fitting of facts to theory. So, we have observations w/out a coherent, compelling, or…

"I'm sorry, but no. Observation comes first, then hypotheses, then prediction, then verification. Explanations go from proposed to confirmed, but they are certainly not the genesis of scientific knowledge.

Not really. I mean, I appreciate the old "Scientific Method" card, that doesn't actually describe how it happens, pretty much ever. All observations happen schematically: by the time you're in grade-school, you've already gotten a basic grounder in Science: The Lies to Children Edition, and all future observations and learning are elaborations on the groundwork. Observations without theory happen at somewhere around, I don't know, age 2. By the time you can speak, you've already started the process of sense-making. In reality, observation always happens against the background of pre-existing theory. It's turtles, all the way down. (This is hardly ground-breaking: Thomas Kuhn was discussing this half a century ago).

"The phenomenon itself must come first, otherwise all you have is the fitting of facts to theory."

Which is precisely what we do. We collect facts, interpret them (that is, use them as a representation of underlying trends or relationships), and then collect more facts to see if our generalization holds true beyond the initial dataset that we used to generate our ideas. Science is absolutely about fitting facts to theory, and then collecting more facts to test that theory, and then elaborating that theory based on those new facts. It's entirely circular (for at least the last few centuries): no modern scientist sets out gathering observations without any pre-existing theory in his head.

Re: Your Thoughts Can Release Abilities Beyond Normal Limits

#37
post #31
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you dare question a website with 'scientific' in the URL? I like your moxie. Yep, I had a lot of nerve doing that. :) A while ago, in an article I noted that Wikipedia defined neuroscience as "the scientific study of the brain and nervous system", while psychology was defined as "the study of the mind, partly through the study of behavior." Within hours of my article's appearance someone inserted the word "scientif…

> So according to the Asperger contingent, focusing on a few activities, or just one, is a mental illness. You chose to ignore the requirement of "significant difficulties in social interaction". These are also not the only diagnostic criteria. When you make comments like this, it becomes very hard to take your other criticisms of psychology seriously, as it raises the question as to what else you're ignoring/leaving…

>> So according to the Asperger contingent, focusing on a few activities, or just one, is a mental illness.

> You chose to ignore the requirement of "significant difficulties in social interaction". These are also not the only diagnostic criteria.

But much field experience shows that the absence of the full symptom set doesn't prevent the diagnosis, therefore the comparison is valid. During its tenure as a serious syndrome Asperger's diagnoses went completely out of control, due to ambiguous diagnostic criteria and (my point) how much like normal behavior the symptoms are.

Allen Frances, the editor of DSM-IV (the edition that introduced Asperger's), now thinks the inclusion of Asperger's was a mistake that led to what he now describes as a "phony epidemic" of diagnoses. Over the protests of many psychologists, Asperger's has been removed from the new DSM.

> There's in other words no contradiction between the positive treatment of grit vs. the description of Asperger syndrome as a disorder.

False. The contradiction is obvious -- they both describe the same behavior. And when it was pointed out that many very successful people exhibited Asperger's symptoms (or "Grit" symptoms, depending on one's outlook), psychologists responded by labeling those people mentally ill. As a result, Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, Thomas Jefferson, and Bill Gates have been labeled mentally ill. The evidence? They accomplished something noteworthy by focusing their attention on a few activities, or just one.

But you're missing the point, which is that psychology proceeds based on descriptions, not explanations. Asperger's is a description without an explanation. "Grit" is a description without an explanation. Science requires explanations. This is why the DSM, psychiatry and psychology's central authority, is in the process of being abandoned as unscientific.

> There's in other words no contradiction between the positive treatment of grit vs. the description of Asperger syndrome as a disorder.

That's true, and it shows what's wrong with psychology -- its superficiality and willingness to accept mere descriptions in lieu of explanations.

Re: Your Thoughts Can Release Abilities Beyond Normal Limits

#38

I'm glad lutusp has already jumped in here to decry the shoddy quality of "science" relied on to build the opinion piece kindly submitted here. He is correct that psychology often relies on data unrepresentative of humankind as a whole, http://hci.ucsd.edu/102b/readings/WeirdestPeople.pdf often engages in dodgy data manipulation after gathering the data, http://opim.wharton.upenn.edu/~uws/ and is usually part of a la…

While I would agree that "the placebo response has no clinical application", I would not discount it so easily. Modern medicine tries to sweep all kinds of things under the "placebo effect" rug. In general, whenever something happens to the human body that we cannot explain by chemistry and mechanics, we call it a "placebo effect". This view of medicine treats the human as two separate entities: the body and the mind.

I believe this is a narrow view. Our brains are not separate from our bodies and have a huge influence over what happens with us. And it seems that at lot of what we previously called "autonomic" systems can be influenced by the mind. This is something we do not understand, which is OK — but I don't think it is OK to mock anyone who says otherwise.

My views on these things changed after, having spent 8 years trying to cure joint pains, I finally got rid of them just by thinking (a simplification, but close enough). Oh, and the throat infections and allergies? Gone, too. That sort of killed my smug scientific approach, or more precisely, made it clear to me that our scientific tools are inadequate and that there are lots of things happening in our bodies that we a) do not understand, b) cannot meaningfully measure, c) cannot reason about in statistical studies. This doesn't mean it is impossible to measure those things, just that at present we do not know how to do it.

I also now believe that "medical training" is not it's all cracked up to be. And I learned that doctors really hate saying "I don't know".

So, I would much rather hear people say "something is happening that we do not understand" rather than discount any articles like this one as pure quackery.

Re: Your Thoughts Can Release Abilities Beyond Normal Limits

#39
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There appear to be intimate connections between the mind and the body, in both directions. That may be true, but only one of those can be studied scientifically.

I'm not sure I follow. There's nothing mystical about the idea. The hypothesis is testable as shown by the research. The data currently looks to support it. I'm not sure why you are saying it is unscientific. I grant you there may be alternative explanations for the data, but it is often true that science has been lead astray by incorrect framing of the question, but it's still science...

> I'm not sure I follow.

The mind is not -- cannot be -- a source of empirical evidence. Science requires empirical evidence.

> The hypothesis is testable as shown by the research.

What research is that? Which scientific theory did the research either shape, or test, or potentially falsify?

> I'm not sure why you are saying it is unscientific.

The article describes, it doesn't explain. Science requires explanations, explanations that can be generalized into principles, tested, and potentially falsified.

> I grant you there may be alternative explanations for the data ...

But the data aren't explained, they're described. Test subjects were more likely to answer correctly if they received positive encouragement. That's a description. No one has tried to explain or generalize that description, turn it into something falsifiable.

> it is often true that science has been lead astray by incorrect framing of the question,

Absolutely true.

> but it's still science...

Absolutely false.

Re: Your Thoughts Can Release Abilities Beyond Normal Limits

#40
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

explain in neuroscientific terms Isn't that putting the cart before the horse? The article draws attention to a phenomenon that isn't predicted by current theory. Before a predictive theory has been developed, there is even some censorship or bias risk in using neuroscientific terms.

>> explain in neuroscientific terms > Isn't that putting the cart before the horse? Not in science. In science, the explanation is both the cart and the horse. No explanation, no science. Einstein didn't win a Nobel Prize for noting that electrons are emitted by a metal surface, he won for explaining why they are emitted. Had Einstein been a psychologist, publishing the fact that electrons are emitted (for simply des…

> Not in science. In science, the explanation is both the cart and the horse. No explanation, no science.

Fair enough. But that doesn't mean that whenever you encounter the boundaries of science you get to call people derisive names and ridicule them.

See my other comment — I used to have the same smug approach, until I found out on myself that there are things that medicine doesn't understand. Of course I don't call it "science", but I don't ridicule it, either. I just know that we don't know.

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