Live data from Hacker News

On Being Black in China

theatlantic.com

31–40 of 58 posts

Re: On Being Black in China

#31
post #6

This author has an incredibly solipsistic worldview: Mao issued another statement of support in April 1968 after the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. But despite these expressions of support, there is scant evidence to prove Mao or any other Chinese political leader at the time would have been willing to align themselves actively with the Civil Rights Movement. In fact, Chinese foreign policy in the 1960s…

I bet Marketus could wear a hoodie and walk home from the store in China without getting shot by a racist vigilante. Lin Biao, who wrote Long Live the Victory of Peoples War, Black Panther Maoist ideology, China support for Third World liberation like in Vietnam, Cuba support for liberation of Angola, and Third World solidarity and liberation struggle in general had more to do with forcing legal change in Western apartheid ( also separate but equal laws in U.S.) regimes then the civil rights movement.

Re: On Being Black in China

#32
post #6

This author has an incredibly solipsistic worldview: Mao issued another statement of support in April 1968 after the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. But despite these expressions of support, there is scant evidence to prove Mao or any other Chinese political leader at the time would have been willing to align themselves actively with the Civil Rights Movement. In fact, Chinese foreign policy in the 1960s…

Of course, you fail to mention the land reforms (which brought life expectancies up from 35, to more like 45). He saved as many lives with the land reforms as he killed in the Great Leap (which was only about 3 years - how long should he have tried it, if he genuinely though it would save hundreds of millions of lives?)

1960 to 1970 was when China actually came out of darkness (life expectancies rising from 45 to over 60). You could argue that this was because Deng (and other reformers, when Deng was purged) had managed to seize enough control that Mao couldn't do too much damage. The Cultural Revolution (which is the time period we are talking about) was bad for the people who were targeted, but China just didn't have that many educated people that trying to kill them all would make an appreciable dent in life expectancies. China would probably have developed a lot faster if it hadn't destroyed its education system, but it still grew pretty quick (even during the Cultural Revolution).

So basically, over Mao's life China went for a life expectancy of 35 to a life expectancy 60. Much of this was probably Deng fixing up the things that Mao broke.

Maoism is a terrible system of government, but it turns out it's streets ahead of feudalism. Really, the heads of the Qing dynasty should really go down as the worst leaders ever (imagine a century of people dying at the same rate as the Great Leap), with Mao as a runner up.

Re: On Being Black in China

#33

I've been asking for this for years, but if anybody can come up with a method (website?) for me to figure out how black people are seen in different countries and regions, that would help me a lot. Seems like the only way to tell is to fly somewhere, then find out that your experience there is not going to be like your friend's was. Racist heatmaps?

"how black people are seen" - i don't think it can be answered by one number on the scale from 1 to 10. For example, Russians are pretty racist, nationalistic chauvinistic, antisemitic ... you name it, basically Equal Opportunity Haters ... and there are a lot of disrespectful jokes about black people as well. On the other side - we drank a lot with the black students we had at our University and at other places and…

I'm sure a few linear-esque metrics could be teased out, but yeah, it's more complex than that.

I'm definitely a party pooper:) I'm often suprised by the amount or racism that can be directed at you in places where there aren't any black people to be angry at, though.

Re: On Being Black in China

#34
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because "ideals" means "belief systems" rather than "list of terrible things that they did that temphn thinks should be mentioned whenever their name comes up in conversation"?

Hard as it may be to imagine, there are things that are more important than whether someone said something nice once about the US civil rights movement - such as hundreds of millions of Chinese lives. The USA is not the center of the world and the level of platitudinous veneration of American icons is not the most important criterion by which to judge a foreign leader.

As hard as it can be to imagine, you don't have to discuss every aspect of something while making a point about a single aspect of something.

Re: On Being Black in China

#35

I've been asking for this for years, but if anybody can come up with a method (website?) for me to figure out how black people are seen in different countries and regions, that would help me a lot. Seems like the only way to tell is to fly somewhere, then find out that your experience there is not going to be like your friend's was. Racist heatmaps?

Hey, I'm building something that aims to answer exactly these kinds of questions. It's still early in development, right now there is actually a site-breaking bug causing a ton of pages to timeout :( , but I'm hopeful that in a year from now you'll be able to find answers to all sorts of questions like that. It's called www.istorical.com, and it's a site dedicated to sharing information about what it's like to live i…

I'm interested. Make sure to see color.

Re: On Being Black in China

#36
post #18
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

never mind the damage Mao inflicted on the country. China became more materialistic, less ideological, less idealistic. "Never mind" the damage Mao inflicted? 65 million people died during his reign. Post-Mao China is more realistic, more productive, much wealthier, and much less insane (aka "ideological/idealistic"). It is less likely to foment violent revolution nearby and more interested in profitable stability. I…

> "Never mind" the damage Mao inflicted? 65 million people died during his reign. First, the huge majority of those deaths were due to famine. Second, it was in a country in great turmoil, civil war, and a revolution (regime change, if you prefer). In places where such things happen -- as opposed to an country with a stable political climate like the US, people die (including by execution). Someone from a stable coun…

and for the "philosophical" parts of nazism, even decades ago, e.g Nietchze, Wagner, Heidegger, Carl Schmitt, and tons of lesser intellectuals

Whoa, that's way unfair, particularly to Nietzsche, who deplored anti-semitism and mocked it (along with Germans in general, for that matter—if there's any group he picked on it was them), and who would surely have been the first person to repudiate his thuggish sister's Nazification of his work. Nietzsche's sensibility was far too refined for him to deserve lumping in with Nazi intellectuals. I'd go so far as to say that anyone who understands the first thing about him would have to agree, though I'm far from a Nietzsche scholar and shouldn't say such things.

Wagner you can have.

Heidegger is a complex case. As far as I know the jury is still out about the relation between his philosophy and Nazism. It's certainly not obvious. (And his personal behaviour is a different question.)

Schmitt, sure, except he was born in 1888 and hardly predates Hitler.

The majority of German artists and intellectuals weren't aligned with the Nazis, so I don't think your argument is very strong here, though of course it's not true that Hitler was a lone bad apple or whatever.

Re: On Being Black in China

#37
post #6

This author has an incredibly solipsistic worldview: Mao issued another statement of support in April 1968 after the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. But despite these expressions of support, there is scant evidence to prove Mao or any other Chinese political leader at the time would have been willing to align themselves actively with the Civil Rights Movement. In fact, Chinese foreign policy in the 1960s…

The passage you quote seems fairly neutral to me, and you appear to bring more baggage to the conversation than the author himself. There was in fact a qualitative change in popular Chinese outlook from Mao to Deng, never mind the damage Mao inflicted on the country. China became more materialistic, less ideological, less idealistic. White people were associated with rich and powerful western nations, so their presti…

>> White people were associated with rich and powerful western nations, so their prestige increased. Black people were associated with poor African nations, so their prestige decreased.

I thought the article might make that point, which would have explained the teaching anecdote, but instead, the author sees the opposite trend:

"Unlike their parents and grandparents, China's youth have grown up with access to information, entertainment, and art from all over the world. Many have consequently come to reconsider stereotypes of black people, and they are in turn influencing the opinions of their older, more "traditional" relatives."

I was hoping he would come back around and try to explain the apparent contradiction.

Re: On Being Black in China

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"how black people are seen" - i don't think it can be answered by one number on the scale from 1 to 10. For example, Russians are pretty racist, nationalistic chauvinistic, antisemitic ... you name it, basically Equal Opportunity Haters ... and there are a lot of disrespectful jokes about black people as well. On the other side - we drank a lot with the black students we had at our University and at other places and…

I'm sure a few linear-esque metrics could be teased out, but yeah, it's more complex than that. I'm definitely a party pooper:) I'm often suprised by the amount or racism that can be directed at you in places where there aren't any black people to be angry at, though.

>I'm often suprised by the amount or racism that can be directed at you in places where there aren't any black people to be angry at, though.

Don't mistake xenophobia where the "other" at that given moment and place just happens to be, for example, a black with racism toward blacks.

Re: On Being Black in China

#39
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because "ideals" means "belief systems" rather than "list of terrible things that they did that temphn thinks should be mentioned whenever their name comes up in conversation"?

Hard as it may be to imagine, there are things that are more important than whether someone said something nice once about the US civil rights movement - such as hundreds of millions of Chinese lives. The USA is not the center of the world and the level of platitudinous veneration of American icons is not the most important criterion by which to judge a foreign leader.

You sound like a writer for Reader's Digest beating a drum of evil empires. It is a cheap shot about deaths that cannot be argued here just as Trayvon Martin would not be a HN article. HN politics have to be circuitous, indirect and arguments depending on popular assumptions but cannot be taken to task as it would be off-topic. How can people take these death estimates at face value when academics have been paid by the CIA, death estimates in books like "The Black Book of Communism" have been proven to be exponentially inflated, child births go down during upheavals but the birth decrease gets counted as deaths.

Re: On Being Black in China

#40
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The passage you quote seems fairly neutral to me, and you appear to bring more baggage to the conversation than the author himself. There was in fact a qualitative change in popular Chinese outlook from Mao to Deng, never mind the damage Mao inflicted on the country. China became more materialistic, less ideological, less idealistic. White people were associated with rich and powerful western nations, so their presti…

never mind the damage Mao inflicted on the country. China became more materialistic, less ideological, less idealistic. "Never mind" the damage Mao inflicted? 65 million people died during his reign. Post-Mao China is more realistic, more productive, much wealthier, and much less insane (aka "ideological/idealistic"). It is less likely to foment violent revolution nearby and more interested in profitable stability. I…

Does that meet the definition of genocide?

I'm no expert but, first of all, the peasants who died weren't a different ethnic group or a social class antagonistic to Mao, they were the ones who swept him to power.

Second, AFAIK Mao didn't intentionally set out to kill people, the famine was the result of cockamamie policies of indigenous industrialization to be made possible by massive planned increases in farm productivity freeing up labor.

And the leadership was blinded by ideology and convinced themselves it was working, and the political climate was such that no one dared contradict Mao, everyone reported massive production, so even as people were starving they exported food to get industrial products. They didn't set out to kill people, it just happened due to incompetence, a bad system with bad incentives, and ideological hubris.

Mao was a nutty tyrant, and yet he gave the peasants literacy, medical care, and paved the way for modern China. He was preferred by those peasants to Chiang, who conscripted/enslaved peasants, sent them to fight the Japanese, but 40% died of disease and starvation before they saw action. Even with American support (admittedly tepid since they knew him well) Chiang couldn't beat Mao. (Google 'Chiang February 28' for more about what a great guy he was).

Estimates of excess deaths in Iraq, are done doing a similar methodology, range from 400,000 to a couple of million. If those were due to bad policies and ideological hubris, do those constitute genocide?

Anyway, history is quite complicated, we don't judge the Brits just by the famines in Bengal either, although the 'g' word sometimes comes up.

It's a good article about a black American's perspective on China, so of course it's from a very specific point of view, and in order to get a perspective on Mao and blacks, it doesn't need to say he was also responsible for the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution.

Post reply on HN