31–40 of 97 posts
this issue comes up every couple of years - these guys write linux, you can't make them do anything. they are untouchable and will do/say whatever the hell they want. linus especially - is a grown ass man and does this in person too, as is his prerogative. anyone see his github speech? he stands up in front of 300 people and calls them all idiots.
Sarah according to those who know more than me wrote "the entire USB3 stack" and then in one discussion http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.stable/58049/focu... thus reacted on Linus claims: On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 08:22:27 -0700, Linus wrote: "Greg, the reason you get a lot of stable patches seems to be that you make it easy to act as a door-mat. Clearly at least some people say 'I know this patch isn't important…
Linus' reply: Because if you want me to "act professional", I can tell you that I'm not interested. I'm sitting in my home office wearign a bathrobe. The same way I'm not going to start wearing ties, I'm *also* not going to buy into the fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords. Because THAT is what "acting professionally" results in: people resort…
In all seriousness, this line of reasoning is pretty fallacious, Linus has somehow jumped from "not actively abusing anyone" to the conclusion that this inevitably leads to backstabbing and passive aggressiveness.
He provides no evidence to support this claim, and I think many of us who work in reasonable office environments know that this is just simply not the case. Don't let Linus's stature cloud the fact that he's making unsubstantiated claims and just expecting you to go along with them.
I share Lucas De Marchi's perspective: I see lots of strong words in LKML. So much that in some other lists there's the say "hey, this isn't LKML and this behavior is not appreciated here". However in this case I don't see it. Linus and Greg were in no way calling out for violence, but instead making joke about it. What I am seeing more often than I'd like is people losing the ability to joke at ourselves. For me ove…
Sarah according to those who know more than me wrote "the entire USB3 stack" and then in one discussion http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.stable/58049/focu... thus reacted on Linus claims: On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 08:22:27 -0700, Linus wrote: "Greg, the reason you get a lot of stable patches seems to be that you make it easy to act as a door-mat. Clearly at least some people say 'I know this patch isn't important…
Linus' reply: Because if you want me to "act professional", I can tell you that I'm not interested. I'm sitting in my home office wearign a bathrobe. The same way I'm not going to start wearing ties, I'm *also* not going to buy into the fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords. Because THAT is what "acting professionally" results in: people resort…
With first you can argue. With second, you're just suffering an attack of a bully.
On another extreme, I can imagine going buzzwordy like Microsoft would mark the death of Linux it is now.
It's reasonable to point to the cases where Linus crosses the line from "this is shit" (I think everybody can agree that he definitely has contributed enough to get the right to claim something like that, even in these words) to personal abuses.
Negative feedbacks are the only thing that protect every physical system and people too from going full wacko. Linus has the right to give a negative feedback, but should be expected to receive it himself when he crosses the line.
>I won't be the nice girl anymore.
So, can anyone tell me what Sarah Sharp has contributed to the kernel?
Linus:
Yes. And I do it partly (mostly) because it's who I am, and partly because I honestly despise being subtle or "nice".
[much later]
The thing is, the "victim card" is exactly about trying to enforce your particular expectations on others, and trying to do so in a very particular way.
You can call it hipocrisy or Linus being a fucking moron, but don't spit in my beard and tell me it's snowing, okay? Oh my oh my, that's just "how he is", but if others can't stand his crap, then that's them playing "the victim card." What a joke.
People don't exist for code, code exists for people. Well, the code that's worth making and keeping around, anyway. So good on her for standing up to him, and shame on the cowardly clowns just eating popcorn, and making a point of posting about it, too; for someone who claims to despise being nice, Linus sure has a big tolerance for sucking up.
this issue comes up every couple of years - these guys write linux, you can't make them do anything. they are untouchable and will do/say whatever the hell they want. linus especially - is a grown ass man and does this in person too, as is his prerogative. anyone see his github speech? he stands up in front of 300 people and calls them all idiots.
I like Rusty Russell's point of view: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1525480 " You have to be harsh with code: People mistake politeness for uncertainty. Whenever I said 'I prefer if you XYZ' some proportion didn't realize I meant 'Don't argue unless you have new facts: do XYZ or go away.' This wastes my time, so I started being explicit. But be gentle with people. You've already called their baby ugly."
This is a false dichotomy. I do a lot of code review, both in my day job and for many open source projects. I've never had to verbally abuse someone to explain the changes I wanted to see in a patch. (OSS projects I've done code review on include: Django, PyPy, Topaz, CPython, Twisted, and OpenStack)
Bonus point if your code review system can flag a comment as "Defect" to make it more explicit. It does not need to involve four-letter words or cussing in Finnish.
Ironically his argument about fake politeness is EXACTLY what he's getting. People are pretending that his horrible behavior is acceptable just because they don't want to get on his bad side. Acting professionally is not about politeness, it's about not muddying up the conversation with information that's not useful.
[1] http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3977141&cid=442916...
EDIT: Had to add one more gem from the Slashdot discussion, this one by Culture20[2]:
It's not "fake politeness" to stop using abusive language, it's normal politeness.
[2] http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3977141&cid=442909...
I am not a subscriber of LKML, so I am not sure, but I think that Linus understands this and doesn't abuse/insult anyone too often, or it will not be too effective. Otherwise, everyone would consider him a dick instead of a blunt and straightforward person, wouldn't they?