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US blocks crackdown on tax avoidance by net firms like Google and Amazon

guardian.co.uk

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Re: US blocks crackdown on tax avoidance by net firms like Google and Amazon

#31

Post by phpnode »

patrickaljord wrote: post #29
phpnode wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your post is a tirade against taxation in general, it's not pertinent to the point at hand. Obviously (most) governments want to avoid a situation where a foreign entity is strong enough to destroy any local competitor and on top of that, contribute nothing back to the economy in terms of tax revenue. It's completely ridiculous. If you deliver goods and services in a country, you should expect to pay the appropriate…

It's not tirade against taxes in general, it's a tirade against spending. Don't you understand that states have clearly refused to cut their spending and that their only answer is more taxes? We're already at 60 to 70% taxes here in France and they always need more because they refuse to cut spending, not only do they refuse to cut them but they make them bigger each year. First they're coming for Google and Amazon b…

As a French citizen, do you think it's fair that you get taxed at a high rate whilst some huge, billion dollar business pays significantly less in terms of percentage?

Whether the French tax rate is too high or not is not relevant. The question is, should a foreign company be given an unfair advantage compared to a local company? I would hope your answer is 'no'.

Re: US blocks crackdown on tax avoidance by net firms like Google and Amazon

#32

Post by simonh »

cmdkeen wrote: post #17
dantheman wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I agree with you that the foreign earnings things completely crazy. Using one bad policy to argue against a good one is just as bad. This is a good move on the part of the US, what we also need is the ability to move corporate profit from foreign subsidiaries back into the US without facing tax.

You're missing a step though - which is that these corporations do everything possible to avoid paying the due tax on those foreign profits. I'm all in favour of getting to repatriate profits then - but taking the profits through a tax haven needs to be stopped first. Take Google in the UK for instance. They don't "sell" anything in the UK according to their tax returns, so claim every deal is actually finalised thro…

It's not as simple as that. Suppose I run a company based in France employing 100 people and selling goods by mail order. All my operations are in France, so clearly I should pay my taxes in France. The only economic activity that occurs when I sell to someone in the UK is the postage delivery at the UK end. Your proposition is that I should pay UK taxes, but clearly I should definitely pay French taxes. So which do I pay, both? That's not a viable tax regime.

Trust me, if there was a simple way to fix this, it would be fixed.

Re: US blocks crackdown on tax avoidance by net firms like Google and Amazon

#33

Post by patrickaljord »

danmaz74 wrote: post #26
patrickaljord wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope the US wins. I'd rather this money stays with Google and Amazon than it goes to the EU states. Why? Because the more profit Google and Amazon make, the more value they produce for society as in more work, better technology, better life etc. What does the state do with tax money? It spends it badly and ends up creating more debt. So, it creates the opposite of value, negative value or debt, and crony capitalism…

The thing here is not about "more taxes" or "less taxes". It is about WHO pays the taxes, however high or low they are. Giving a big competitive advantage to these (mostly US) corporations isn't going to lower your taxes in France; on the contrary, you don't just have to pay more taxes (or create more debt).

Any observers here for the last 60 years have noticed that the more tax revenues we get, the more ambitious we get with out spending and the more debt we create. The day France gets no or too little tax revenue and very bad rating is the day it'll be forced to cut spending. Until then, time has proven that it will never seriously cut spending.

Re: US blocks crackdown on tax avoidance by net firms like Google and Amazon

#34

Post by paulhauggis »

camus wrote: post #10
forgottenpaswrd wrote: post #6

It talks about France. France is a machine of expending money right now, better said, of wasting money. I am living in France this Summer, a very rich and beautiful country with a hole in the pocket. French people love to life well, and someone else to pay the bills, the Germans, the rich, whoever but not them. Mr Hollande only want to do one thing, to raise taxes. But there is never enough money when you don't expen…

You should go back to where ever you come from or wherever it is better for you to live. Sarkozy ruined France so yes now everbody needs to pay for it. And the problem is not taxes,i'm happy to pay taxes. The problem is people like French liberals ( liberals are "right-wing" in France ) that gives hand outs to their friends or vote laws without financing their them , and then all they have left is blaming the poor,th…

I know people that have this attitude in the US. TONS of tax dollars are wasted on government-funded programs that just don't work.

"Whatever. Or maybe you prefer US way of life, where it is me/myself/I and there is next to 0 solidarity."

I would rather live in a country like this than one that takes upwards of 70% of my money and when I ask for some accountability, I get people telling me to leave.

Re: US blocks crackdown on tax avoidance by net firms like Google and Amazon

#35

Post by Mordor »

patrickaljord wrote: post #15
danmaz74 wrote: post #2

Let's see how this pans out. Maybe this time the UK will not play for the US team, given the outrage there about this issue, but I'm afraid that without a common EU position about this the US will be able to use their usual divide et impera tactics.

I hope the US wins. I'd rather this money stays with Google and Amazon than it goes to the EU states. Why? Because the more profit Google and Amazon make, the more value they produce for society as in more work, better technology, better life etc. What does the state do with tax money? It spends it badly and ends up creating more debt. So, it creates the opposite of value, negative value or debt, and crony capitalism…

Perhaps, but isn't it better for companies like Google and Amazon to have competitors than a tax free advantage? Trickle down economics isn't a solution.

Re: US blocks crackdown on tax avoidance by net firms like Google and Amazon

#36

Post by vetinari »

mtgx wrote: post #8

If you make a certain amount of money in a certain country, then you should pay that country's taxes. Pretty simple concept, no? This whole "let's reroute all our profits from all the countries into this country where the taxes are close to zero" is utter BS. If you don't like its taxes, don't do business in that country. Simple. If the government thinks they're losing businesses with high taxes, then maybe they will…

Putting my accounting hat on.

It is simple concept, but its implementation is not.

What does "make a certain amount of money in a certain country" mean? EBT? (Earnings before taxes?) Well, we have this revenue from this country, we are buying intercompany services (without market subsitute)[1], so let's price them in the same amount as the revenues... And bam, there you have profit of 0 and all earnings exported to tax haven.

The entire point is, that is is not easy to define, what should be taxed. Sales or revenues are not profit. You still have to provide whatever you sold and the costs are tax deductible. For all companies, not just the big ones.

[1] It is called transfer pricing and it is checked by tax authorities.

Accounting hat off

Re: US blocks crackdown on tax avoidance by net firms like Google and Amazon

#37

Post by patrickaljord »

phpnode wrote: post #31
patrickaljord wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not tirade against taxes in general, it's a tirade against spending. Don't you understand that states have clearly refused to cut their spending and that their only answer is more taxes? We're already at 60 to 70% taxes here in France and they always need more because they refuse to cut spending, not only do they refuse to cut them but they make them bigger each year. First they're coming for Google and Amazon b…

As a French citizen, do you think it's fair that you get taxed at a high rate whilst some huge, billion dollar business pays significantly less in terms of percentage? Whether the French tax rate is too high or not is not relevant. The question is, should a foreign company be given an unfair advantage compared to a local company? I would hope your answer is 'no'.

Google and Amazon already pay plenty enough taxes here, they employ thousands of people and pay millions in salary tax. They contribute to improving people's life thanks to their great products unlike the State that only creates more debt.

But to answer your question, I think that as a French citizen I pay too much tax and I'm glad Google and Amazon are able to get away with it. I applaud anyone who manages to not feed the beast. I, on the contrary, feel guilty for paying so much tax and helping keep this monster of State alive. The answer is less tax for everyone, not more tax especially on the company that actually manage to make a lot of money and create a lot of work. And yes, local companies are dying here because of the crazy taxation, and taxing Google and Amazon more wouldn't change anything for local companies.

Re: US blocks crackdown on tax avoidance by net firms like Google and Amazon

#38

Post by patrickaljord »

weavejester wrote: post #30
patrickaljord wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope the US wins. I'd rather this money stays with Google and Amazon than it goes to the EU states. Why? Because the more profit Google and Amazon make, the more value they produce for society as in more work, better technology, better life etc. What does the state do with tax money? It spends it badly and ends up creating more debt. So, it creates the opposite of value, negative value or debt, and crony capitalism…

The idea that private industry is always more efficient than the public sector is, at best, an over simplification. One need look no further than healthcare to find an example where the public sector is vastly more efficient than a market of competing, private sector companies. The state also spends money on things that would not be funded any other way. Pure-scientific research, such as CERN. Policing for people too…

Public health-care is a complete failure here in France. We actually pay more than Switzerland where it's privatize and the French assurance maladie is going completely bankrupt while being forced on us. Many pure scientific research have been done by private entities, I don't see why only public programs could do any pure scientific research. Plus, if the people were given their money back , maybe they could use it to invest in stuff they actually care about such as pure scientific research which only represent like 1 or 2% of our national budget today.

As for policing, I don't think anyone disagrees that it should remain public. Justice and Police and Military security are what the state exists for. Not for subsidizing movie producers or a dying paper media industry like we do here in France. I'm ok with a low flat tax that everyone would pay to sustain the basic functions of the state. It would probably be cheaper for Google and Amazon compared to whatever they're paying their accountants to design their tax schemes and give them huge gain in time wasted for bureaucracy.

Re: US blocks crackdown on tax avoidance by net firms like Google and Amazon

#39

Post by disputin »

danmaz74 wrote: post #2

Let's see how this pans out. Maybe this time the UK will not play for the US team, given the outrage there about this issue, but I'm afraid that without a common EU position about this the US will be able to use their usual divide et impera tactics.

I thought we already saw? There were some token payments, a fraction of the amount owed, sufficient to placate the majority not bothering with the details. David Cameron is weak and serves the Bullingdon types - BBC news this morning: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23273448 This is described as economic recovery.
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