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Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

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Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#31

Post by mtgx »

grey-area wrote: post #22

The other dangerous thing about this attitude of, oh, it's only foreigners, is that GCHQ and other US allies routinely sweep up communications from all over the world (in the case of GCHQ probably mostly from the US). So if you send information to Europe from the US, you're being spied upon, and the information relayed back to the NSA. The same goes for citizens of the UK subject to NSA spying who have data or contac…

What worries me is that their spying "partnerships" are so broad, that NSA receiving data on Americans from GCHQ, and GCHQ receiving data from NSA, works effectively as themselves doing the spying in their own country.

So then this argument that "we don't spy on our own people", implying that "we have no data on our own people" is potentially misleading to the extreme.

Of course, NSA already spies on Americans, but other countries (Canada, Australia, UK, and others) might not be so "brave", and they could be getting data about every one of their citizens from NSA, which makes it just as bad as themselves doing all the spying. So the "legal boundaries" of these spying agencies are effectively useless.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#32

Post by rmc »

jmadsen wrote: post #10
rmc wrote: post #5

That's one thing that has annoyed me about the tech world's outrage and objections to the PRISM spying lark. They appear outraged that US citizens are spied on, with the implication that it was ok when non us citizens were spied on. Do I, a non us citizen, not have a right to privacy?

You, as a non-US citizen, are not protected by our constitution. Nor am I, a US citizen, protected from your government. I have no grounds to "raise outrage" at my government for spying on foreigners, much as I might disapprove. They don't break any laws when they do that. Moral rules, yes; disrespect to our friends and allies, yes; laws, no. When they spy on US citizens, they tear up our Constitution in doing so. Th…

That's not true. The outrage is often mentioned as violation of privacy, as a police state, as spying on innocent people. If it was some rule breaking legal reason, then the FISA courts should make US citizens happy, but it demonstratidly doesn't.

However it appears the people outraged font consider me a full person.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#33

Post by acro »

jmadsen wrote: post #10
rmc wrote: post #5

That's one thing that has annoyed me about the tech world's outrage and objections to the PRISM spying lark. They appear outraged that US citizens are spied on, with the implication that it was ok when non us citizens were spied on. Do I, a non us citizen, not have a right to privacy?

You, as a non-US citizen, are not protected by our constitution. Nor am I, a US citizen, protected from your government. I have no grounds to "raise outrage" at my government for spying on foreigners, much as I might disapprove. They don't break any laws when they do that. Moral rules, yes; disrespect to our friends and allies, yes; laws, no. When they spy on US citizens, they tear up our Constitution in doing so. Th…

But you certainly are protected by the Finnish constitution. At the start it says like this: "All humans are equal in the eyes of the law".

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#34

Post by Ygg2 »

Yver wrote: post #8

What hurts me is that people are acting surprised that spy agencies are spying on people. Their job is to collect intelligence. If they can read your emails, they will. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intelligence_agencies

And I'm surprised they need to at least respect the law of the nation they are working over.

Also I'm surprised people are acting like the being a corporate scumbag is something weird. Corporate scumbags are by their very definition corporate scumbags and must behave scumbaggy.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#35

Post by hartator »

lispm wrote: post #20
hartator wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the european model better? I will trade my european passport for the US one anytime. But, sure, I also feel there is two kind of people, and if you are not an US citizen, you are screwed.

There is an european passport?

Basically, on your passport, you have both "european union" and the name of the issuing country.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#36

Post by mike-cardwell »

nraynaud wrote: post #13
anon1385 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nationalism is a relatively modern phenomenon. The founding of the US was part of the rise of Nationalism. The idea that your nation (I assume you are american?) represents 'higher ideals' than others is rather nationalistic don't you think? From wikipedia: With the emergence of a public sphere and integrated economy in the 18th century, a broader sense of identification with one's country began to permeate society.…

I have a candid question then: what did drive the mess of wars in Europe before that? Germany, Switzerland and Italy were a mess of little independent territories fighting each other. I don't think all of those wars where based on religious grounds.

Land

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#37

Post by rustynails »

sampo wrote: post #29
nraynaud wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a candid question then: what did drive the mess of wars in Europe before that? Germany, Switzerland and Italy were a mess of little independent territories fighting each other. I don't think all of those wars where based on religious grounds.

I am afraid anon1385's text puts the 200-300 year old rise of nationalism in a wrong light. Before that nationalism, people were not global citizens, quite opposite: their circle of life was even smaller (in a geographic sense). Cities, city-states and small kingdoms. England alone was a patchwork of small quarreling kingdoms ( http://www.thehistoryofenglish.com/pics/heptarchy.gif ). So the rise of nationalism widene…

What about the Mongols? Romans? I'm not seeing the distinction. Can you please explain?

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#38

Post by nraynaud »

sampo wrote: post #29
nraynaud wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a candid question then: what did drive the mess of wars in Europe before that? Germany, Switzerland and Italy were a mess of little independent territories fighting each other. I don't think all of those wars where based on religious grounds.

I am afraid anon1385's text puts the 200-300 year old rise of nationalism in a wrong light. Before that nationalism, people were not global citizens, quite opposite: their circle of life was even smaller (in a geographic sense). Cities, city-states and small kingdoms. England alone was a patchwork of small quarreling kingdoms ( http://www.thehistoryofenglish.com/pics/heptarchy.gif ). So the rise of nationalism widene…

understood: without confrontation to the foreigner there is not need to take a stance on one's own nationality. There is no contrast to reveal it.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#39

Post by UVB-76 »

I was going to write a comment to this effect on one of the many threads related to this subject, but figured it would fall on deaf ears.

Americans should not underestimate the damage this scandal has done to the American 'brand'. Growing up, I was the Americophile of my friends. I loved American culture, I aspired to live the American dream, I fully intended to pursue American citizenship later in life.

This is only the latest in a long line of realisations, but my view couldn't have changed more. I don't even want to visit the US again, let alone pledge my allegiance to it.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#40

Post by hsuresh »

jmadsen wrote: post #10
rmc wrote: post #5

That's one thing that has annoyed me about the tech world's outrage and objections to the PRISM spying lark. They appear outraged that US citizens are spied on, with the implication that it was ok when non us citizens were spied on. Do I, a non us citizen, not have a right to privacy?

You, as a non-US citizen, are not protected by our constitution. Nor am I, a US citizen, protected from your government. I have no grounds to "raise outrage" at my government for spying on foreigners, much as I might disapprove. They don't break any laws when they do that. Moral rules, yes; disrespect to our friends and allies, yes; laws, no. When they spy on US citizens, they tear up our Constitution in doing so. Th…

There is another important reason why you, as a US citizen should be worried about spying on non-US citizens. Now that everyone knows about this, other countries are probably going down the same route - in fact, it looks like some already are, and this is going to be net loss for everyone - both US citizens and everyone else.
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