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Vipassana Trip Report by Rap Genius Founder

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Re: Vipassana Trip Report by Rap Genius Founder

#31

The last section on cultish teachings seems like a deal breaker for me. I've read this a couple times and I just want to go to this place, and meditate in a safe place. I don't really want to be preached to.

I'm with you there. OP's experience is startlingly similar to mine. I hated the chanting, the obvious eastern cultural bias (an overzealous assistant told me not to point my feet at the TV while GoenkaHeadroom was talking), the vague conservative morality, the claims to nonsectarianness while still referencing reincarnation, etc. But the technique really works, and the gestalt of their teaching method does work, and…

- There are good reasons for the feet thing, but ultimately ... someone who has great equinmaity won't be bothered much by your feet pointing at him, or not pointing at him, your zealous worship, your respect, your lack of respect, or your disrespect. So someone who gets upset over that, well, if the teacher remains equanimous, that means the one who is thrashing is the student.

- The overzealous assistant has his own thing going on, and so do you. That's actually an AWESOME interaction to have. How do you feel about it? Where is coming from your body? Good fodder for vipassana.

- The Trappist monks has the same practiced with a different set of cultural bias. Something to investigate.

- You can look up Daniel Ingram's book, Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha. It's a little advanced, but the coolest thing about his book is that the framework he talks about is flexible enough that you can see the underlying practice regardless of cultural biases.

  - When you reach a tipping point of realization, you find yourself not at all bothered by these cultural biases or little difference. The essential practice is still the same.

  - The conservative morality and reincarnation falls out of the insights people have doing these practices. Ingram has a great teaching, that morality is putting the realization you received on the cushion in every day life. It might manifest as conservative, it might not. The important thing is that *you* are living the realizations you received through your practice. The labels, conservative or otherwise, eventually fall away.

  - Likewise, it is quite all right for you not to believe in reincarnation. You do this long enough, you start finding things about incarnation cycles. Until you've had those experiences, that one is a tough one to swallow for most people. And why should they accept it when they have not directly realized it?

Re: Vipassana Trip Report by Rap Genius Founder

#32
post #28
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eventually, you also learn how to give yourself encouragement. You learn that the universe itself is giving you encouragement. And you eventually learn that the need for encouragement is itself an arising object that passes in time.

And yet somehow even after learning all that, you still manage to get frustrated and have difficult experiences!

Isn't life wonderful!? :-D

Re: Vipassana Trip Report by Rap Genius Founder

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"do you believe that this is a totally natural convergence of thought, or is it possible that this is the progression of thought that this particular set of guidance will lead you toward?" Happy to answer, but I'm not sure I understand the question -- could you rephrase?

Sorry, I should have quoted more. > Yes, Goenka does make some counterintuitive claims about the underlying nature of the universe, but the basis for those claims are phenomenological experiences that people have had while meditating; they come from the same set of experiences that you yourself will have if you stick with it. To rephrase the question - do you think that these experiences are convergent, in that anyon…

"in that anyone with enough discipline to meditate for long enough will have them, or do you think that these experiences are the result of Goenka's guidance?"

I think they are specific to the technique, but not the teacher. E.g. someone doing concentration meditation (as opposed to insight meditation) is going to have very different experiences.

I don't think the fact that different spiritual techniques yield different experiences says much about their validity though. After all, you could easily consider normal everyday life to be a spiritual technique that yields a certain set of experiences.

"To further the question, are you saying that the 'counterintuitive claims' are something at which (again given enough practice/discipline) we all would arrive, or just that we would all share something similar to the experiences that they were born from?"

I think that for every technique there is a set (in the mathematical sense) of experiences that can be experienced via that technique. And every time you practice the technique, you're basically picking out an experience from that set at random (though certain experiences need certain requisite skill levels). So if you were skilled enough and had enough practice then your odds of having a given experience would increase, but they'd probably never be 100%.

You can see that though, for example, with the Johns Hopkins psilocybin trials, the odds of having some mystical experience over the course of two high-dose sessions are about 80%. Some people might be floating through the universe, others might experience the sum total of everything that ever can and will and has happened from every perspective, others might life a life review, others might relive their birth, etc. But the more times you do it, the more of these experiences you will eventually have.

Re: Vipassana Trip Report by Rap Genius Founder

#34
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you there. OP's experience is startlingly similar to mine. I hated the chanting, the obvious eastern cultural bias (an overzealous assistant told me not to point my feet at the TV while GoenkaHeadroom was talking), the vague conservative morality, the claims to nonsectarianness while still referencing reincarnation, etc. But the technique really works, and the gestalt of their teaching method does work, and…

- There are good reasons for the feet thing, but ultimately ... someone who has great equinmaity won't be bothered much by your feet pointing at him, or not pointing at him, your zealous worship, your respect, your lack of respect, or your disrespect. So someone who gets upset over that, well, if the teacher remains equanimous, that means the one who is thrashing is the student. - The overzealous assistant has his ow…

On some level I realize all of this. And one thing I did like is that it's really the least coercive of any sort of spiritual event I've ever tried. I've explored other facets of buddhism, and I'm always put off by bowing, images of the Buddha, incense, etc. and Goenka uses none of that stuff. And even the strictness, the difficulty is useful in the context of the retreat. So I'm in my own place along the path.

Re: Vipassana Trip Report by Rap Genius Founder

#36

What is the practice of meditation taught there, and what result in a human life do they have if they practice the meditation?

Vipassana. The "western" name of the meditation practice is generally given as insight or mindfulness meditation.

In terms of benefits, consider meditation a tool to understand your mind and to be better able to understand your drives and motivations, and to learn how to focus your attention on various aspects of yourself. What "result" you get from that depends very much on you and your motivations and desires, but what I feel I get from it is a stronger appreciation of the world around me, better concentration, and better impulse control.

A particular a-ha moment for me was how I feel I started noticing when I started rationalizing to myself why I should buy comfort food. It was a distinct feeling of "looking in" and getting to catch my mind in action concocting excuses for why I should give in and buy that chocolate that doesn't fit with my diet, early enough to make it easier to stop them. In other words it feels like it makes it easier to exercise willpower.

Note there's a lot of opinion and feelings here. There is actual scientific data on vipassana style meditation, but I'm a sceptic, and I know full well that some or all of the benefits I believe I see from it could be placebo, or unrelated to the meditation (perhaps it's just because I get more rest), and I certainly haven't measures them. But frankly, I'm also of the opinion that it doesn't matter all that much - if it's a placebo, it's a damn good one, that makes me feel good.

Try it for yourself and see. It is not a big investment in time.

A good and mostly secular introduction free of "woo" is Mindfulness in Plain English. It is available for free in non-DRM'd digital versions here: http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html or you can buy the paper version of Amazon.

It is notable for very popular amongst non-buddhists, including skeptics/atheists for it's lack of religious content. There are some scattered references to buddhism, but they are mostly providing context and explanation of the background of vipassana, and to me at least, as a lifelong hardline atheist, were not particularly obnoxious.

The Urban Dharma site also have a lot of other introductory resources - I'd particularly recommend the "Introduction to Meditation" audio series by Gil Fronsdal.

Re: Vipassana Trip Report by Rap Genius Founder

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying nobody can really help you.

After reading about meditation recently, I felt inspired and have been trying to meditate for 10 minutes every night before bed. I started this around a week ago. In the last two days I have begun to wonder if I should find a good teacher. I find it _insanely_ hard to hold my focus for that ten minute period. However much I try, I often catch myself thinking about something else - without realising how I got onto tha…

Stick with it. A week is nothing. And try this series of audio recordings which include short guided meditation periods:

http://www.audiodharma.org/series/1/talk/1762/

(Gil Fronsdal, Introduction to Meditation)

They're a good secular introduction to mindfulness meditation. (Gil Fronsdal is a buddhist, but in this series he takes great care to avoid mixing the religious aspects with the meditation teaching, to the extent of jokingly referring to the "b-word")

I've also mentioned "Mindfulness in Plain English" elsewhere: http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html

Both of them address the problems you mention. And actually they're not so much problems as your perception of them are - you get better by practising observing and guiding your attention back to your breath (or whatever other object of focus you choose), and you get that practice by constantly losing focus.

Some people will experience it getting much worse after a while, even. After a few weeks I went through a period where I'd get really intense "monkey mind". That is, I'd sit down to meditate, and my mind would go completely crazy. All kinds of things would pop into my head, including totally ridiculous and pointless concerns, and concentration was impossible.

Then I had a period where I'd get an intense feeling that I hadn't set my alarm (I was meditating before I had to leave for work, and this feeling indicated that I was running late, and needed to look at the watch immediately). If I looked at my watch, the feeling would still reassert itself a few minutes later. I had to look at my watch several times, and confirm and reconfirm that the alarm was set and the countdown running before I started meditating to weaken the feeling, and then still spent weeks overcoming the desire to look at my watch before it finally subsided.

But it all passed, and while I don't meditate as often as I like to, it's gotten a lot easier with time. That is not to say it is easy, and as with pretty much everything else, you can always push further into more advanced practices. But you get to a stage where you feel that you are actually meditating rather than fighting off total chaos in your mind, and that makes it a lot easier to want to sit regularly.

Note that I'm not saying you shouldn't find a teacher. By all means. But you can make a good start by yourself, and you can find a lot of good (and free) guidance online as a starting point.

Re: Vipassana Trip Report by Rap Genius Founder

#38
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(OP here) I feel you, but did you read the caveat to all the criticisms? http://news.rapgenius.com/1620770 On balance, it's pretty chill. Even the people who totally buy in and devote huge portions of their life to this organization are mostly just really into meditation (as opposed to, say, devotion to the organization or the man behind it). Though some of tactics are kind of strong-arm-y, the emphasis is always on…

Have you found a version of this that isn't at all preachy or "strong-arm-y?" I feel like a huge benefit to meditation is that it allows people to arrive at their own conclusions. But what I worry about is that the "guidance" you'd receive in situations like this is more guidance to a set of predetermined ideals or conclusions, rather than guidance into how best to find your own. It's incredibly hard to do anything s…

I'd suggest you just read some of the free material and/or listen to some of the podcasts available first.

I've left these two URL's in a couple of other comments - take a look at my other comments in this thread for more explanation. But these are gentle, non-preachy and non-strong-arm-y introductions:

http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html (Mindfulness in Plain English; free e-book, or you can get the printed version of Amazon)

http://www.audiodharma.org/series/1/talk/1762/ (Introduction to Meditation; MP3 recordings of a course held by Gil Fronsdal)

I share your scepticism. I'm a lifelong atheists, and though long fascinated by meditation, what kept me away for the longest time was the religious / spiritual baggage that comes with a lot of the teaching resources.

Re: Vipassana Trip Report by Rap Genius Founder

#39
post #36

What is the practice of meditation taught there, and what result in a human life do they have if they practice the meditation?

Vipassana. The "western" name of the meditation practice is generally given as insight or mindfulness meditation. In terms of benefits, consider meditation a tool to understand your mind and to be better able to understand your drives and motivations, and to learn how to focus your attention on various aspects of yourself. What "result" you get from that depends very much on you and your motivations and desires, but…

> better concentration, and better impulse control.

I have not done a 10 day sit as described in TFA, but I've had a passably regular Vipassana-style meditation practice for a few years now, and concentration and impulse control have been two major benefits in my life.

One thing that comes with impulse control, but I find valuable enough to merit mentioning on its own, is that I am now much better at letting go of thoughts. I used to have difficulty with intrusive thoughts--fantasies of violence or humiliation that would play on loop in my mind. Now, they appear, drift once through my mind, and are gone. This also applies to getting songs stuck in my head.

For context, I grew up in the Christian church, identify as atheist, and have only a mild intellectual interest in the spiritual trappings of the tradition from which meditation comes to me.

Re: Vipassana Trip Report by Rap Genius Founder

#40
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- There are good reasons for the feet thing, but ultimately ... someone who has great equinmaity won't be bothered much by your feet pointing at him, or not pointing at him, your zealous worship, your respect, your lack of respect, or your disrespect. So someone who gets upset over that, well, if the teacher remains equanimous, that means the one who is thrashing is the student. - The overzealous assistant has his ow…

On some level I realize all of this. And one thing I did like is that it's really the least coercive of any sort of spiritual event I've ever tried. I've explored other facets of buddhism, and I'm always put off by bowing, images of the Buddha, incense, etc. and Goenka uses none of that stuff. And even the strictness, the difficulty is useful in the context of the retreat. So I'm in my own place along the path.

Cool!

I'm allergic to coercion too. I did discover to my delight ... and horror ... that no one in the world can force you to be mindful ;-)

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