Going Dutch • Hacker News Board

Re: Going Dutch

#31

Post by jd » Wed, May 06, 2009, 3:21 PM UTC

pragmatic wrote: post #30

lethain wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived in rural Japan last year, and had similar experiences with stores being open or lack thereof. There were three restaurants and two bars. One restaurant never opened for dinner, another was run by a family, was closed at 8PM and was closed on Sundays, the third was run by one woman and was closed for dinner on weekends and also tuesdays. One of the bars' closing schedule involved being closed on the third Sund…

That's how it is in rural America (Midwest, the South) also. You need a large population to support 24 hour consumerism.

In the Netherlands it's not a matter of population -- shops are not allowed to be open outside the regulated hours. I believe the law was introduced a few decades ago in order to protect the mom and pop stores (a misguided attempt to put mom and pop stores on equal footing with larger businesses. If the mom and pop store can't afford to stay open at night then nobody is allowed to. Because that's "fair".)

Since gas stations have permission to stay open around the clock they're used to get emergency food. You can also get food delivered on Sundays and in the middle of the night, so it's not so bad.

Re: Going Dutch

#32

Post by nihilocrat » Wed, May 06, 2009, 3:30 PM UTC

lethain wrote: post #12

delano wrote: post #7

Some of the symbolism is a bit extreme but overall it's a pretty good overview of life in the Netherlands. There is a level of comfort here that I haven't experienced anywhere else however that comfort has both positive and negative consequences. This is the only article I've read that touches on that aspect of life here. And I'm glad he mentioned the lack of anything open 24h a day and rarely past 6 (some grocery st…

I lived in rural Japan last year, and had similar experiences with stores being open or lack thereof. There were three restaurants and two bars. One restaurant never opened for dinner, another was run by a family, was closed at 8PM and was closed on Sundays, the third was run by one woman and was closed for dinner on weekends and also tuesdays. One of the bars' closing schedule involved being closed on the third Sund…

Also had a similar experience while living in Munich a few years ago. I learned I had to plan out my food purchases much better, but otherwise it wasn't very inconvenient. Definitely a change of pace, and I comforted myself thinking that it meant people didn't have to work at their crappy grocery store jobs late / on Sundays.

If it somehow enabled 50 cent beers and 2 euro bottles of (good!) wine, I am not about to complain.

Re: Going Dutch

#33

Post by anamax » Wed, May 06, 2009, 4:12 PM UTC

mtinkerhess wrote: post #27

benzim wrote: post #21

To think that the social welfare state is a natural outgrowth of churches setting up schools and hospitals is completely ridiculous. The two things couldn't be more opposite. Social welfare emerges as a result of the collapse of Christianity in a society. The Dutch will talk about how they don't think anyone should be without health care, but if they saw someone in need they wouldn't help them. I don't know which com…

To believe in social welfare is to acknowledge that everyone has a responsibility to help those in need, and that the state should enforce that responsibility.

That's true only if you believe that what the state does is necessarily and only helpful. (There are other requirements as well, but I'm limiting myself to two of the more obvious problems.)

Govt help programs, at least in the US, are aimed more at benefitting middle class providers than the poor who are supposedly the beneficiaries.

Re: Going Dutch

#34

Post by jules » Wed, May 06, 2009, 4:43 PM UTC

nw wrote: post #29

delano wrote: post #7

Some of the symbolism is a bit extreme but overall it's a pretty good overview of life in the Netherlands. There is a level of comfort here that I haven't experienced anywhere else however that comfort has both positive and negative consequences. This is the only article I've read that touches on that aspect of life here. And I'm glad he mentioned the lack of anything open 24h a day and rarely past 6 (some grocery st…

Generally the Dutch like their system, and I think it works pretty well for them. But as the article suggests, it works because they have such a communal spirit and sense of shared values. Americans have that individualist spirit and we are a very heterogeneous group with little in common beyond our love of freedom to roam and make a buck. Perhaps a small New England state could pull it off (and they do try) but to e…

> After all, they only have 16m people on a tiny piece of land.

Do you think that matters? I feel no more connected to people living 100 km away than people living 300 km away.

Re: Going Dutch

#35

Post by jules » Wed, May 06, 2009, 4:50 PM UTC

benzim wrote: post #21

To think that the social welfare state is a natural outgrowth of churches setting up schools and hospitals is completely ridiculous. The two things couldn't be more opposite. Social welfare emerges as a result of the collapse of Christianity in a society. The Dutch will talk about how they don't think anyone should be without health care, but if they saw someone in need they wouldn't help them. I don't know which com…

> The Dutch will talk about how they don't think anyone should be without health care, but if they saw someone in need they wouldn't help them.

[citation needed]

Re: Going Dutch

#36

Post by ellyagg » Wed, May 06, 2009, 5:02 PM UTC

Speaking only for myself as a US citizen, I'm proud of the fact that the US has led the world in per capita income the last few decades. For a country our size to consistently be number 1 or near the top (depending on who's doing the analysis) is pretty amazing. I think there's room in the world for a country with an ethic that favors aggregate production. Why does everyone have to be the same?

People are free to move to a country with a value system that's more closely aligned with their own, e.g., one that seeks to flatten wealth disparities. But that's not what people want, it seems. A lot of people feel a strong impulse to convince others that their value system is the best.

Re: Going Dutch

#37

Post by jules » Wed, May 06, 2009, 5:32 PM UTC

miked wrote: post #2

A Dutchman replies: http://www.newmajority.com/ShowScroll.aspx?ID=8a80f624-92a7-... The NYT article doesn't make any mention of the fact that emigration from the Netherlands in 2004 was the highest since 1954. This makes me wonder if things are really as wonderful there as the article claims, although it does a pretty good job of pointing out the pros and cons.

This is ridiculous:

> they are forced to emigrate, as in the case of Somali-born politician Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who violated the Dutch norms of “consensus” by insisting on publicly discussing female genital mutilation; honor violence; honor killings; and forced marriages.

She was forced to emigrate because she lied about her past. If she hadn't she wouldn't have been allowed in in the first place.

Re: Going Dutch

#38

Post by sethg » Wed, May 06, 2009, 5:33 PM UTC

Ezra Klein points out that even though the author of "Going Dutch" describes "a cultural tendency not to stand out or excel...the very antithesis of the American ideal of upward mobility", if you compare actual statistics, the US has less economic mobility (as measured by the relationship between parents' and childrens' income) than many other industrialized nations.

http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/ezraklein_archive?month=0...

Re: Going Dutch

#39

Post by benzim » Wed, May 06, 2009, 5:35 PM UTC

jules wrote: post #35

benzim wrote: post #21

To think that the social welfare state is a natural outgrowth of churches setting up schools and hospitals is completely ridiculous. The two things couldn't be more opposite. Social welfare emerges as a result of the collapse of Christianity in a society. The Dutch will talk about how they don't think anyone should be without health care, but if they saw someone in need they wouldn't help them. I don't know which com…

> The Dutch will talk about how they don't think anyone should be without health care, but if they saw someone in need they wouldn't help them. [citation needed]

I was referring to this quote from the article.

"If you tell a Dutch person you’re going to raise his taxes by 500 euros and that it will go to help the poor, he’ll say O.K., he said. But if you say he’s going to get a 500-euro tax cut, with the idea that he will give it to the poor, he won’t do it. The Dutch don’t do such things on their own. They believe they should be handled by the system. To an American, that’s a lack of individual initiative."

Re: Going Dutch

#40

Post by biohacker42 » Wed, May 06, 2009, 5:36 PM UTC

nw wrote: post #29

delano wrote: post #7

Some of the symbolism is a bit extreme but overall it's a pretty good overview of life in the Netherlands. There is a level of comfort here that I haven't experienced anywhere else however that comfort has both positive and negative consequences. This is the only article I've read that touches on that aspect of life here. And I'm glad he mentioned the lack of anything open 24h a day and rarely past 6 (some grocery st…

Generally the Dutch like their system, and I think it works pretty well for them. But as the article suggests, it works because they have such a communal spirit and sense of shared values. Americans have that individualist spirit and we are a very heterogeneous group with little in common beyond our love of freedom to roam and make a buck. Perhaps a small New England state could pull it off (and they do try) but to e…

Individualistic spirit my butt. Americans aren't a special and unique snowflake. Every country's system is largely an accident of history.