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Complaint filed against Irish subsidiaries of Apple, Facebook

irishtimes.com

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Re: Complaint filed against Irish subsidiaries of Apple, Facebook

#31

Post by mrmekon »

maaku wrote: post #23
maxerickson wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you mean there is no reasonable legal expectation of privacy on a public street. I certainly expect that you will not follow me around videotaping me.

People can't follow me around and videotape me, even in a public place. That's stalking or harassment. But somehow if it's online, done by robots (no less creepy), and at the direction of the government, such laws don't apply.

I don't know about the EU, but in the U.S. your statement is simply not true. Somebody absolutely can follow you around taking photos or videos, as long as you are in a public space and they can come up with any non-malicious excuse (i.e. it's an art project!).

Stalking laws vary state-to-state, but you generally have to prove it is specifically "for the purpose of harassing and intimidating".

See also: paparazzi

See also: http://www.victimsofcrime.org/our-programs/stalking-resource...

Re: Complaint filed against Irish subsidiaries of Apple, Facebook

#32

Post by tomp »

Fuxy wrote: post #26

Well this is going to be interesting. And don't forget guys this is the EU we're talking about not US. It is a lot more difficult for companies to make changes in their favor since every country has its on system and it's own ways. Just the amount of paper pushers in Europe is exponentially higher. Makes "convincing" any one of them less effective due to their limited power.

Not really. The thing is, people in Europe want privacy, and will go to great lengths to retain it.

Re: Complaint filed against Irish subsidiaries of Apple, Facebook

#33

Post by pash »

rmc wrote: post #19
revscat wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious to see if the business case against the NSA's power will have an effect. Right now I think things favor the bureaucracy. But if Apple, Google, Facebook, etc. make a broad push against it, we could see legislative changes which protect them. A likely scenario is something which indemnifies them against any losses incurred as a result of foreign suits related to privacy breaches, so long as they're in acco…

A likely scenario is something which indemnifies them against any losses incurred as a result of foreign suits related to privacy breaches, so long as they're in accordance with US law. But that would only work in USA. What if a court in Germany fines Google Germany Ltd €1,000,000, and €100,000 per day until they stop sharing data with the US Gov? Will the US government give Google €1,000,000 to pay off the fine? Wha…

Barring unusual claims of extraterritorial jurisdiction by either the United States or the European Union (or any of its member states), Google and other American tech companies may be able to comply with both US and EU law by handling data on EU users only within the EU, through EU subsidiaries.

Under that arrangement, the EU subsidiaries of US tech companies would not ordinarily be subject to US laws requiring them to hand over data to the NSA, so those subsidiaries could comply with EU privacy laws with no problem; at the same time, EU law would not reach the US parent companies, so they could give all the data to the NSA that they must in compliance with US law.

But because the Obama administration recently expanded the United States' already broad (by international standards) claims of extraterritorial jurisdiction in another matter,† it now looks like the United States might indeed claim the legal power to compel foreign subsidiaries of U.S. tech companies to hand over data they control to the NSA. In that case, those foreign subsidiaries would find themselves in an impossible situation, one in which they would be operating illegally under either EU or US law no matter what they do.

† — See my comment above, at the same level as this one's parent.

Re: Complaint filed against Irish subsidiaries of Apple, Facebook

#34

Post by hfsktr »

maxerickson wrote: post #15
PedroBatista wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your are in a public space, people can videotape you the same way they can look at you instead of everyone closing their eyes the moment put your feet on a side-walk. Just look at all the photos you have taken, how many strangers are in them?

Sure, my point is that there is a technical legal argument and then there are social mores. We shouldn't let the legal argument start leading our values. I invite you to actively start photographing or videotaping some strangers if you think such behavior is entirely within people's expectations.

I thought it was linked from HN somewhere but I can't find it. There are several videos from this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ym7x7twSoqc

Some of them he is clearly in a school or something, which may not be public. In others he is outside.

I believe this is how you expected people to react?

Edit: found it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4739152

Re: Complaint filed against Irish subsidiaries of Apple, Facebook

#35

Post by pessimizer »

rmc wrote: post #20
thenewkid wrote: post #14

The lawsuit targets the Irish subsidiary because that's where the money is. If they move they will probably pay higher taxes. Quite clever! > The group’s complaint draws on the precedent set in 2006, which found that a mass transfer of data to the US authorities was illegal under EU law... The Swift case was closed when the company moved its data centre from Belgium to Switzerland.

(a) It's not a lawsuit, but a complaint to the Irish Data Protection Commissioner, which is like a type of court. The DPC can force companies to reveal what they hold on people, and can require them to do (or not do) a thing if it breaks Irish data protection law. (b) Facebook Ireland Ltd (an Irish company) was targetted, not because it's "where the money is", but because if you sign up to Facebook and you're not in…

>The DPC can force [Irish] companies to reveal what they hold on people, and can require them to do (or not do) a thing if it breaks Irish data protection law.

>if you sign up to Facebook and you're not in the USA or Canada, then you have a legal relationship with Facebook Ireland Ltd, and fall under Irish data protection law.

Facebook can choose to change this, but they won't because they benefit from the double Irish; because that's "where the money is."

Re: Complaint filed against Irish subsidiaries of Apple, Facebook

#36

Post by makomk »

pash wrote: post #33
rmc wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A likely scenario is something which indemnifies them against any losses incurred as a result of foreign suits related to privacy breaches, so long as they're in accordance with US law. But that would only work in USA. What if a court in Germany fines Google Germany Ltd €1,000,000, and €100,000 per day until they stop sharing data with the US Gov? Will the US government give Google €1,000,000 to pay off the fine? Wha…

Barring unusual claims of extraterritorial jurisdiction by either the United States or the European Union (or any of its member states), Google and other American tech companies may be able to comply with both US and EU law by handling data on EU users only within the EU, through EU subsidiaries. Under that arrangement, the EU subsidiaries of US tech companies would not ordinarily be subject to US laws requiring them…

I'm not sure claims of extraterritorial jurisdiction by the US really count as unusual in this day and age.

Re: Complaint filed against Irish subsidiaries of Apple, Facebook

#38

Post by jbooth »

jbooth wrote: post #29
rmc wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will point out that this complaint against Facebook was filed in Ireland with the Irish Data Protection Commissioner, whereas you're talking about a different country, the UK.

Obviously the Austrian student group who filed this lawsuit are total hypocrites based on what the UK does.

Guys, that was sarcasm. I wasn't claiming that the Austrian students are responsible for UK CCTV policy.

Re: Complaint filed against Irish subsidiaries of Apple, Facebook

#39

Post by orokusaki »

hermaj wrote: post #28
orokusaki wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but what if I place a camera on each side of your property (outside the property line) of your house, pointing to the edge of your property, then use your tax dollars to pay employees to watch you on the cameras every time you leave your property? Would you enjoy that? If not, why would you put up with it? It's your state, not the government's state. The government are your employees, not your owners, so you ha…

I'm not sure if you're serious here. The UK government doesn't own the vast majority of the cameras in the UK which make up this 'huge' number. The vast majority of CCTV cameras in the UK are not connected to a grand network. The majority of cameras are in small shops / stores and are used to provide evidence for shoplifting or other types of theft. It's the owners choice as to whether they are there or not. The UK g…

XE is a private company. So is Lockheed Martin and Haliburton. Clearly, I've struck a nerve in you (that was not the intent), but it's your choice to believe whatever you want about the intentions of the state (or any private company). I'll just say, I'm sure glad I don't live there, and I'm glad I don't live in the US... I'll stick to living in a hostile tax haven in the Caribbean, watching the rest of the world give up their rights and their gold, bit by bit :)

Re: Complaint filed against Irish subsidiaries of Apple, Facebook

#40

Post by claudius »

mrmekon wrote: post #31
maaku wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People can't follow me around and videotape me, even in a public place. That's stalking or harassment. But somehow if it's online, done by robots (no less creepy), and at the direction of the government, such laws don't apply.

I don't know about the EU, but in the U.S. your statement is simply not true. Somebody absolutely can follow you around taking photos or videos, as long as you are in a public space and they can come up with any non-malicious excuse (i.e. it's an art project!). Stalking laws vary state-to-state, but you generally have to prove it is specifically "for the purpose of harassing and intimidating". See also: paparazzi See…

> I don't know about the EU, but in the U.S. your statement is simply not true.

Ah, I forgot that we are taking US data protection laws into account when an Austrian group files a complaint against an Irish subsidiary.

E.g. in Germany it is forbidden to take photos in public where people who did not agree to it are the main subject – you can still photograph buildings, scenes etc., just not individual people.

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