Advice for young developers • Hacker News Board

Re: Advice for young developers

#31

Post by ed209 » Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 3:28 PM UTC

jmduke wrote: post #18

ed209 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends on how you class "for free". Most people think free = not being paid money. I'm actually looking into working for the whole of July for no monetary compensation. But in return, I expect to learn something from whoever I work with/for. Most of the time money is good. You can exchange that for many things in life. But sometimes, knowledge is better to have as you can exchange that for (even more) money. An…

>> Most of the time money is good. You can exchange that for many things in life. But sometimes, knowledge is better to have as you can exchange that for (even more) money. This is a false dichotomy. With some very rare exceptions, you do not choose between monetary compensation and experience: you need -- and should get -- both.

I agree completely, other than calling them rare exceptions. You can't quantify the rarity of these opportunities until you know how big the gap is between your current knowledge and what you'd learn.

The bigger the gap, the less money you are likely to make but the more you'll learn. If you get paid nothing, you're basically there to learn (to the value at least the salary you would receive).

Re: Advice for young developers

#32

Post by nknighthb » Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 3:31 PM UTC

chollida1 wrote: post #5

> Work for free. This is my boilerplate advice for anyone getting started in any industry, not just web developers. Finding someone that will let you work with them is not that hard, if you offer to do it for free. Yikes.... I would never advise someone to work for free for a company. If you want to work on an open source project then that's probably a better use of your time. The problem with free is that it lowers…

It's also highly illegal. If you're performing valuable work for a business, they have to pay you, lest they get a visit from a deeply unimpressed Department of Labor.

Internships are almost always paid now. Even where the internship might qualify to be unpaid, it's cheaper to just pay minimum wage than try to prove you're not extracting value from the intern's labor.

Re: Advice for young developers

#33

Post by chasing » Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 3:35 PM UTC

crusso wrote: post #23

RuggeroAltair wrote: post #7

Advertising the 'work for free' thing pushes towards establishing a dangerous culture, in which slowly all first jobs are expected to be unpaid. And some companies would (and some already do) include these 'free' people in their business model. There is no reason why those companies can't pay a basic internship salary which at least allows you not to work somewhere else to be able to eat and sleep somewhere else than…

There is no reason why those companies can't pay a basic internship salary You don't know that. Maybe the company is a totally new idea being started on a shoe string that can't afford to pay much of anything. Maybe the product or project is a "what the hell" kind of project that doesn't really have any revenue associated with it but won't be even attempted without some free or mostly free time. Where would the open…

"How can I possibly start my whimsical high-risk venture if I have to pay my employees enough so they can afford food and shelter? Why does everything have to be stacked in favor of those greedy minimum wage earners?"

Re: Advice for young developers

#34

Post by joshdance » Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 3:38 PM UTC

I found a health tech company I wanted to work for an asked for an internship. They not only paid me, it is now my full time job. Offer to work for free and if you generate significant value they will pay you.

Re: Advice for young developers

#35

Post by chasing » Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 3:40 PM UTC

nknighthb wrote: post #32

chollida1 wrote: post #5

> Work for free. This is my boilerplate advice for anyone getting started in any industry, not just web developers. Finding someone that will let you work with them is not that hard, if you offer to do it for free. Yikes.... I would never advise someone to work for free for a company. If you want to work on an open source project then that's probably a better use of your time. The problem with free is that it lowers…

It's also highly illegal. If you're performing valuable work for a business, they have to pay you, lest they get a visit from a deeply unimpressed Department of Labor. Internships are almost always paid now. Even where the internship might qualify to be unpaid, it's cheaper to just pay minimum wage than try to prove you're not extracting value from the intern's labor.

This cannot be stressed enough. It's not an option for a company to pay you for your work. It's a legal requirement. Do not work for free.

An internship is not employment. It's something a company does that's supposed to benefit you educationally. It's not a way for a company to get free labor.

It took a lot of fight to get labor laws in place in the United States and they exist for a very good reason.

Re: Advice for young developers

#36

Post by omni » Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 3:45 PM UTC

chollida1 wrote: post #5

> Work for free. This is my boilerplate advice for anyone getting started in any industry, not just web developers. Finding someone that will let you work with them is not that hard, if you offer to do it for free. Yikes.... I would never advise someone to work for free for a company. If you want to work on an open source project then that's probably a better use of your time. The problem with free is that it lowers…

Did the author change the article after this comment got so highly ranked here? If you were indeed directly quoting the article, then it has changed quite a bit.

Shame on the author of the article if he changed it. We can't have a meaningful discussion if you get scared of a little criticism and change the source material.

Re: Advice for young developers

#37

Post by steevdave » Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 3:48 PM UTC

chollida1 wrote: post #5

> Work for free. This is my boilerplate advice for anyone getting started in any industry, not just web developers. Finding someone that will let you work with them is not that hard, if you offer to do it for free. Yikes.... I would never advise someone to work for free for a company. If you want to work on an open source project then that's probably a better use of your time. The problem with free is that it lowers…

I got my first computer job this way - I offered to work for free for the first two weeks, if it didn't work out, they got free labor for two weeks. They hired me by the third day. This was back in 2002 or so though, and I was still at home with my parents. Nowadays I could not make such an offer.

Re: Advice for young developers

#38

Post by chollida1 » Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 4:08 PM UTC

omni wrote: post #36

chollida1 wrote: post #5

> Work for free. This is my boilerplate advice for anyone getting started in any industry, not just web developers. Finding someone that will let you work with them is not that hard, if you offer to do it for free. Yikes.... I would never advise someone to work for free for a company. If you want to work on an open source project then that's probably a better use of your time. The problem with free is that it lowers…

Did the author change the article after this comment got so highly ranked here? If you were indeed directly quoting the article, then it has changed quite a bit. Shame on the author of the article if he changed it. We can't have a meaningful discussion if you get scared of a little criticism and change the source material.

Yikes, it looks like the author silently updated her/his post . I guess the message got through:)

Re: Advice for young developers

#39

Post by phazmatis » Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 4:15 PM UTC

chollida1 wrote: post #5

> Work for free. This is my boilerplate advice for anyone getting started in any industry, not just web developers. Finding someone that will let you work with them is not that hard, if you offer to do it for free. Yikes.... I would never advise someone to work for free for a company. If you want to work on an open source project then that's probably a better use of your time. The problem with free is that it lowers…

What if you're self-taught? Getting actual, resume-usable job experience must look better than open source contributions, at least outside of the SF startup/hacker culture.

Re: Advice for young developers

#40

Post by davemello » Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 4:21 PM UTC

omni wrote: post #36

chollida1 wrote: post #5

> Work for free. This is my boilerplate advice for anyone getting started in any industry, not just web developers. Finding someone that will let you work with them is not that hard, if you offer to do it for free. Yikes.... I would never advise someone to work for free for a company. If you want to work on an open source project then that's probably a better use of your time. The problem with free is that it lowers…

Did the author change the article after this comment got so highly ranked here? If you were indeed directly quoting the article, then it has changed quite a bit. Shame on the author of the article if he changed it. We can't have a meaningful discussion if you get scared of a little criticism and change the source material.

Omni, I did change the title on one of my four points from 'Work for free.' to 'Intern/volunteer', as that was my original intention. I used the phrase 'work for free' to make a point - that when you start out, gaining the best experience often does not go hand-in-hand with a big pay-check. I also added a couple of sentences to reinforce that point. Sorry - I didn't think of that as responding to criticism, but rather clarifying my poor choice of words. The feedback posted here showed that I was unclear on that.

I appreciate everyone's feedback here. This is my first post on Hacker News, and I didn't expect this kind of response.

I realize that the idea of not valuing one's own time can be dangerous, and lead to a bad dynamic down the road. This is especially true for freelancers. That said, I stand by the point. For a student or beginner, the idea of getting involved with real-world communities, whether its a company you respect, an open-source project you support, or even a non-profit that you believe in, can be very valuable. Sometimes the best way to get involved with these groups, particularly if you have little to offer on paper, is to be creative with how you can help them, knowing that your biggest reward for the contribution will be the experience you gain. I don't see this as being unfair to yourself at all, nor do I see it as selling yourself short.