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How Colleges Are Selling Out the Poor to Court the Rich

theatlantic.com

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Re: How Colleges Are Selling Out the Poor to Court the Rich

#31

Post by lukeschlather »

protomyth wrote: post #9
mdkess wrote: post #3

When people vote to not raise taxes to fund these schools, what do they expect is going to happen to subsidized tuition? We saw this happen a few years ago in Washington after voters voted against raising taxes to fund schools, and schools started accepting more foreign students and fewer local students to make their budgets. People were upset about this, for some reason. If the school gives four students $5,000 scho…

It seems we play plenty of taxes if the opening quote to the article can be believed: "Neat fact: If the federal government were to take all of the money it pours into various forms of financial aid each year, it could go ahead and make tuition free, or close to it, for every student at every public college in the country."

That statement sounds somewhat deceptive, since it likely means we could make tuition free for current students at public colleges, but does not account for the current private-school students who would flock to now-free public schools.

Also, I think the gap in actual cost of tuition between private colleges and public colleges is somewhat overstated, the primary difference being that public colleges are maybe 30-50% subsidized, while private colleges are more like 20-30% subsidized.

Re: How Colleges Are Selling Out the Poor to Court the Rich

#32

Post by ruswick »

superuser2 wrote: post #17
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #4

I don't mean to restate the obvious, or pander to the crowd on HN, but every time we read one of these articles it needs to be stated that the current system is broken even when it is paid for . That is, for all the ink spilled over who can afford what and how much money is spent where, there are tons of kids right now graduating without a sliver of hope for a job. Worse yet, the system has been blowing smoke up thei…

>feel entitled to a job Should we really insult people's character for wanting to work? Entitlement is a connotatively charged word that implies privilege, laziness, and an unreasonable desire to enjoy the fruits of other people's labor while sitting around. I can at least understand the use of the word "entitled" when leveled against welfare, progressive taxation, refusal to do entry-level work, etc. But how is it w…

I think the connotation is that they feel as though they ought to be able to obtain a livable job doing what they want to do, which is not the case. They aren't necessarily entitled, but are naive and have unrealistic expectations.

Just because one loves writing does not mean that they will be able to secure employment as a writer. Yet, students continue to enter writing programs and graduate with useless degrees, expecting to enter the workforce immediately. Certain positions simply aren't in demand, yet students act as though finding employment will be trivial.

Re: How Colleges Are Selling Out the Poor to Court the Rich

#33

Post by ruswick »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #13
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #4

I don't mean to restate the obvious, or pander to the crowd on HN, but every time we read one of these articles it needs to be stated that the current system is broken even when it is paid for . That is, for all the ink spilled over who can afford what and how much money is spent where, there are tons of kids right now graduating without a sliver of hope for a job. Worse yet, the system has been blowing smoke up thei…

I'd like to test your assumptions here. You claim : "the current system is broken" You submit as evidence to that claim : "there are tons of kids right now graduating without a sliver of hope for a job." If I ran this claim backwards (which is to say reverse its assertions) then a "working" education system would produce "most of the kids employable" ? I wonder why that defines "fixed" (or broken for that matter). I…

"Higher learning institutions should help you explore your interests regardless of the applicability of those interests to employment."

I disagree. Historically, postsecondary education might have been limited to the disciplines of academia and focused solely on liberal arts. However, at this point, a four-year degree is an effective prerequisite to 90% of white-collar job. (Irrespective of the actual value of a degree in performing jobs, of course. Obviously, the overwhelming majority of professions don't require four years of institutional training or education to perform. Indeed, I'd wager that most careers don't require academic knowledge beyond that of a seventh grader.)

So, college has been perverted by the labor market into a corollary of the K-12, "career-preparatory" apparatus, and few students enter college in pursuit of actual intelectual stimulation. Most are simply going through the motions to get an entry level job. In effect, college has simply become a funnel from high school to the labor market. We can debate about whether or not this is good, but the fact remains that, given the current post-secondary education landscape, colleges exist to get people jobs and should be measured by that standard.

As for only K-12 being government-funded and thus career-oriented, many if not most students take federal aid of some sort, implicating public funding even for private colleges. It's impossible to disassociate colleges and government money, as federal aid pervades tuition expenditure.

Re: How Colleges Are Selling Out the Poor to Court the Rich

#34

Post by superuser2 »

vinceguidry wrote: post #22
superuser2 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the government were to make the current cost of attendance available to students, colleges would just double their prices (unless you implemented gasp price controls).

I'm highly doubtful people would put up with that. Essentially people would be paying for college twice.

People will put up with anything if it's a prerequisite for being employable, as we've seen from the massive rise in tuition already.

Re: How Colleges Are Selling Out the Poor to Court the Rich

#35

Post by davidf18 »

mattgrice wrote: post #16
technoslut wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's too easy to blame people who vote against raising taxes. The rate at which college tuition has gone up since I went ('95-'99) is insane. This is not including that you could graduate from college from my era and find a decent job. I don't know why the tuition fees have risen so rapidly over a short period of time but it's certainly not helping out middle class families.

University of WA cost has not gone up a single penny since 1990. It used to be that the state paid 80% of that, now it is 30%. Which is why the cost the students see has increased so much -- decrease in state funding, and indirectly, people who vote against taxes. If UW cost had simply kept pace with inflation, it would be $30,000 this year. And if WA residents had maintained their support at 80%, the student bill wo…

Many states have significantly reduced funding for public higher education. Much of tax funding now goes towards Medicaid, and perhaps half of that is not for poor people who need medical assistance but rather middle-class people in nursing homes. Nursing home payments are paid out of Medicaid as well as healthcare for the poor.

So, in a sense, the reason why states are spending less on higher education than a decade or two ago is simply because of this middle class entitlement. The middle class should be purchasing nursing home insurance but instead they leave it up to the state to support.

Re: How Colleges Are Selling Out the Poor to Court the Rich

#37

Post by sp332 »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #30
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a difficult issue for a lot of reasons, hence my restating the context. I'd venture that no matter what else an education provides, if it does not enable a graduate to repay their loan, it is non-sustainable. (Whether you want to use "good" or "bad" here is up to you) Even the phrase "public education" is broad and fuzzy. With a tremendous amount of student loans publicly-financed, with public financing also…

Perhaps we don't see a similar level of difficulty. "I'd venture that no matter what else an education provides, if it does not enable a graduate to repay their loan, it is non-sustainable. (Whether you want to use "good" or "bad" here is up to you)" Your reasoning here doesn't make any sense to me, are you claiming that if a student takes out loans in order to pay for an education in basket weaving. Then fails to ea…

"I'd venture that no matter what else an education provides, if it does not enable a graduate to repay their loan, it is non-sustainable. (Whether you want to use "good" or "bad" here is up to you)"

Your reasoning here doesn't make any sense to me, are you claiming that if a student takes out loans in order to pay for an education in basket weaving. Then fails to earn enough money by applying their acquired expertise in basket weaving to repay that loan. That they educational institution was at fault here?

Not at fault, just not sustainable. As in, if the students can't make enough money to pay the school, the school will go out of business. Less drastically, if a student knows they will have to take a job doing something else to pay off the basket-weaving-school loan, they will not pay thousands of dollars to learn something that can't make them that money back.

Re: How Colleges Are Selling Out the Poor to Court the Rich

#38

Post by matwood »

brudgers wrote: post #24
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a difficult issue for a lot of reasons, hence my restating the context. I'd venture that no matter what else an education provides, if it does not enable a graduate to repay their loan, it is non-sustainable. (Whether you want to use "good" or "bad" here is up to you) Even the phrase "public education" is broad and fuzzy. With a tremendous amount of student loans publicly-financed, with public financing also…

Repaying the loans is only one way the system might be corrected. Allowing student loans to be discharged via bankruptcy would be another, which has recently been outlawed. Thus prices for education are set in a marketplace which rewards bad loans by shifting all of the risk to the borrower.

Why shouldn't the borrower shoulder most of the risk? If we shift risk to the lender then they will simply stop lending. Then people will complain how they can't get a loan to go to college.

Re: How Colleges Are Selling Out the Poor to Court the Rich

#39

Post by capkutay »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #4

I don't mean to restate the obvious, or pander to the crowd on HN, but every time we read one of these articles it needs to be stated that the current system is broken even when it is paid for . That is, for all the ink spilled over who can afford what and how much money is spent where, there are tons of kids right now graduating without a sliver of hope for a job. Worse yet, the system has been blowing smoke up thei…

I just went through college and I can say for a vast majority of students it's a sweet fantasy world of partying and fun paired with 2-3 nights of marathon study sessions before midterms and finals.

Then we see articles saying "Well we need more science and engineering students in our colleges because that's where the jobs are too."

Perhaps the non engineering students aren't getting jobs because they just breezed through 4 years of fun while expecting a reward and a career at the end.

Re: How Colleges Are Selling Out the Poor to Court the Rich

#40

Post by ohazi »

Tuition increases coupled with equivalent financial aid increases are also a convenient way for relatively well-endowed universities to turn "strings attached" money into "no strings attached" money that they can then use however they want. They're essentially laundering donor money.

> At most private institutions, a substantial majority of grant aid comes from endowment funds set up by trustees, alumni, and other generous donors. Many pay into the system hoping that their grants will make college more affordable for their endowed students. In the short term, it does. However, in the long term, the institution responds by raising tuition rates to keep the net price at the market value. While this may benefit especially needy students who qualify for additional grant aid, the average student feels no difference and the additional scholarship money gets diverted to other purposes. They are rarely fraudulent or scandalous. Most of the time they just involve making the institution prettier and more competitive in the cutthroat race for the best and the brightest of America's high school seniors. But looked at from a birds-eye view, one gets the uncanny feeling that colleges are not honoring their donors' wishes to make the place more affordable. And lest you think that you can avoid all of this by refusing to donate, remember that as a United States taxpayer, you pay into the system just like millions of your fellow-citizens. Are you satisfied with how your money is being spent?

http://www.stanford.edu/~rhamerly/cgi-bin/Interesting/Educat...

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