Live data from Hacker News

Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

nytimes.com

31–40 of 62 posts

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#31
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a tropical country, India does not need much of indoor heating. Fine option for heating water.

India needs electricity though, and this can be used to generate electricity.

Doesn't seem to be that efficient though. Random stuff doesn't burn as hot as coal or oil.

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#32
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would really depend on what is being burnt. If it is primarily food waste, paper products, natural fibers, wood, etc.. then yeah; all of that carbon was already "in the system". If they are burning lots of garbage made from petrochemicals then that garbage is basically just another fossil fuel. As I understand it, the real issue with "clean coal" is not the soot but rather the CO2. Depending on what this garbage a…

I found a case study about Oslo's waste management strategy: http://www.c40cities.org/c40cities/oslo/city_case_studies/wa... The study emphasizes their focus on composting for food products and recycling everything else, so a minimum of waste needs to be incinerated or dumped. Also, Oslo closed their landfill in 2007, and it seems they burn the residual gasses (methane?) for electricity, if not burning all of their o…

Surely burning that methane is "in-system". Methane has a 20-year GWP of 72 and, unless my chemistry is far more rusty than I think it is, 1 mol of methane will burn with oxygen to form 1 mol of CO2. From a global warming standpoint, it would actually be wildly irresponsible to not burn that methane. In fact this seems to be the basis for the EPA's "Landfill Methane Outreach Program".

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#33

Oslo is powering their city by putting black ash into the air, which absorbs heat from sunlight, slightly increasing the amount of energy in all of our environmental systems. The place is powered by externalities, just like China. This solution is no better than coal-generated electricity, and this feel-good article is no more useful than clean-coal articles.

But the ash doesn't stick around, does it? Do you have an order-of-magnitude estimate for the heating effects of the ash? I'm guessing it's trivial compared to carbon offset.

There seems to be some debate about whether particulate matter has a net-warming or net-cooling effect. It's difficult to estimate empirically, because there are so many uncontrolled variables.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_dimming

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_cooling#Aerosols

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#34

Oslo is powering their city by putting black ash into the air, which absorbs heat from sunlight, slightly increasing the amount of energy in all of our environmental systems. The place is powered by externalities, just like China. This solution is no better than coal-generated electricity, and this feel-good article is no more useful than clean-coal articles.

Hmm. I was under the impression that burning garbage is different in that you are burning carbon that is already in play in the carbon cycle system - unlike burning coal, which without human intervention would never be introduced into the environment at such a rapid pace. I could be wrong! I was disappointed by the lack of an explanation, or even links to background on the science of this process. Just a puff/fluff p…

Sitting in a hole in the ground is from whence it came. Trash collectors should be getting substantial carbon credits. Their credits should increase the deeper they manage to bury the stuff. Sending it into the atmosphere, especially near the Arctic circle, if atrociously bad.

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#35
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm. I was under the impression that burning garbage is different in that you are burning carbon that is already in play in the carbon cycle system - unlike burning coal, which without human intervention would never be introduced into the environment at such a rapid pace. I could be wrong! I was disappointed by the lack of an explanation, or even links to background on the science of this process. Just a puff/fluff p…

It would really depend on what is being burnt. If it is primarily food waste, paper products, natural fibers, wood, etc.. then yeah; all of that carbon was already "in the system". If they are burning lots of garbage made from petrochemicals then that garbage is basically just another fossil fuel. As I understand it, the real issue with "clean coal" is not the soot but rather the CO2. Depending on what this garbage a…

> in the system

That doesn't make it better. We have too much carbon in the atmosphere. We should be growing corn for the sole purpose of pouring it into oil wells and coal shafts.

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#36
post #11

I suggest expansion into Mumbai... plagued by trash, lacking reliable energy.

Unlike a developed country like Norway, doing this in Mumbai almost makes sense. Get them quickly up to a level where they can hop over a bunch of our generational mistakes and go straight to solar.

But in a developed country with abundant hydroelectric resources, this is shameful. Unless they recover all the waste products, including all the gases and ash, and bury them in old mines.

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#37
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found a case study about Oslo's waste management strategy: http://www.c40cities.org/c40cities/oslo/city_case_studies/wa... The study emphasizes their focus on composting for food products and recycling everything else, so a minimum of waste needs to be incinerated or dumped. Also, Oslo closed their landfill in 2007, and it seems they burn the residual gasses (methane?) for electricity, if not burning all of their o…

Surely burning that methane is "in-system". Methane has a 20-year GWP of 72 and, unless my chemistry is far more rusty than I think it is, 1 mol of methane will burn with oxygen to form 1 mol of CO2. From a global warming standpoint, it would actually be wildly irresponsible to not burn that methane. In fact this seems to be the basis for the EPA's "Landfill Methane Outreach Program".

What's GWP? See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global-warming_potential

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#38

Oslo is powering their city by putting black ash into the air, which absorbs heat from sunlight, slightly increasing the amount of energy in all of our environmental systems. The place is powered by externalities, just like China. This solution is no better than coal-generated electricity, and this feel-good article is no more useful than clean-coal articles.

But the ash doesn't stick around, does it? Do you have an order-of-magnitude estimate for the heating effects of the ash? I'm guessing it's trivial compared to carbon offset.

Ash represents incomplete combustion. I'm pretty the engineers are motivated to ensure the ash is a minor waste product compared the gasses, but somebody should check me on that.

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#39
post #24
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have noted, you can sort out the worst garbage and install filters, and modern filters are very good. It’s still worse for the air than putting the garbage in landfills, but landfills have their problems too.

It's better than landfill without methane recovery, greenhouse gas wise.

Source? Mole for mole, I'm sure methane is worse than CO2, but how much of the carbon mass in a landfill goes to methane?

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#40
post #24
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have noted, you can sort out the worst garbage and install filters, and modern filters are very good. It’s still worse for the air than putting the garbage in landfills, but landfills have their problems too.

It's better than landfill without methane recovery, greenhouse gas wise.

Source? Mole for mole, I'm sure methane is worse than CO2, but how much of the carbon mass in a landfill goes to methane?
Post reply on HN