Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why I have issues with Mark Zuckerberg’s FWD.us

gigaom.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 47 posts

Re: Why I have issues with Mark Zuckerberg’s FWD.us

#31

Post by OGinparadise »

Across America, creative, hardworking people in coffee shops, dorm rooms and garages are creating the next era of growth. Let’s embrace our future as a knowledge economy and help them — and all of us — reach our full potential.

Mark is talking his own book, he wants an unlimited number of cheap engineers from third world countries. Also a "knowledge economy" sounds great until it isn't. A lot like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banking_crises

Raise the salaries so they want to work for FB, Apple and Google instead of GS and JP Morgan and you'll get more than enough employees. Oh, but that would effect your margins. Why aren't corporations hiring more people, instead of hoarding trillions of dollars in cash (1)? Their earnings are at a record high.

(1) "But they do not have to...maximize shareholder's value...." etc. Fine, then we can keep that in mind and we do not even have to listen to them.

Re: Why I have issues with Mark Zuckerberg’s FWD.us

#32

Post by potatolicious »

OGinparadise wrote: post #31

Across America, creative, hardworking people in coffee shops, dorm rooms and garages are creating the next era of growth. Let’s embrace our future as a knowledge economy and help them — and all of us — reach our full potential. Mark is talking his own book, he wants an unlimited number of cheap engineers from third world countries. Also a "knowledge economy" sounds great until it isn't. A lot like http://en.wikipedia…

I keep hearing about the supposed cheapassery of Silicon Valley, but I simply do not see it.

Speaking for myself, I've been able to achieve ~20% raises every single year since I left college by leveraging the explosion in tech salaries. I do not believe I am grossly exceptional by any means. I am out-earning most finance-industry coders (though obviously not bankers).

I just don't see it. When it comes to writing code, the startup scene here in NYC (and in SF, and in SV) are competitive with finance. Short of being a quant your comp packages don't get better than this - at least not if your job description is software engineering.

In fact, I've witnessed the opposite of what you describe. In the engineers I've met there is no shortage of GS/JP Morgan refugees - people sick and tired of the ridiculous hours and being treated like cattle, and jumped ship into our side of tech. I've yet to meet anyone who's bailed from Google/Facebook/et al into GS, but I've met plenty going the other way.

I've met many engineers imported from outside of the US, especially by the likes of Facebook, Google, Amazon, et al. I've never met one that was cheap - every single one earned comfortably into the mid-$100Ks and were worth every penny. In fact, the majority of H-1B holders I've met don't come from third-world countries - they came from developed nations, and they didn't come cheap.

But don't let me get in the way of a convenient narrative, where the only purpose of immigration is the exploitation and oppression of hard-working Americans by evil corporations.

Re: Why I have issues with Mark Zuckerberg’s FWD.us

#33

Post by rdouble »

OGinparadise wrote: post #31

Across America, creative, hardworking people in coffee shops, dorm rooms and garages are creating the next era of growth. Let’s embrace our future as a knowledge economy and help them — and all of us — reach our full potential. Mark is talking his own book, he wants an unlimited number of cheap engineers from third world countries. Also a "knowledge economy" sounds great until it isn't. A lot like http://en.wikipedia…

That is not really how it works.

Re: Why I have issues with Mark Zuckerberg’s FWD.us

#34

Post by potatolicious »

fyi80 wrote: post #29
kozikow wrote: post #26

One of his arguments in my opinion is invalid. He tries to suggest that if USA would simply invest in education, especially in middle America, then USA would produce enough engineers to not have to import engineers from abroad. However, my view is that not everyone, regardless of education, can be good software engineer. Almost all software engineers I know used to be very top at mathematics and science since the ver…

And everyone who could be a good software engineer is succeeding? None of that talent is wasted on excessive obligations, or crime, or malnourishment?

It's not a zero-sum game. Even if the American school system miraculously stopped failing overnight, and we solve the trifecta that is American poverty-race-criminality instantaneously, it will be decades before the labor force sees the full benefit.

We can, and should, be improving the domestic situation - but even going full-bore on that front there is still a gap in labor supply that won't solve itself for decades to come.

There is also a national competitive angle here, which is that every talented, highly-paid individual not working in the US is working somewhere else, enriching another economy, paying (copious) taxes to someone else, and nudging the American trade deficit just a bit in the wrong direction. Worst case scenario they're working on things that directly threaten the US (see: space programs, military tech, economically disruptive tech, etc) when they instead could be working for you threatening some other poor country.

The most prime example of this at work is the entire history of the US space program.

Re: Why I have issues with Mark Zuckerberg’s FWD.us

#35

Post by prayag »

Om misses the biggest problem with the way immigration reform is seen in the Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley talks about start-up visa and visa for American college graduates but doesn't touch on the lives of the immigrant kids who came here illegally when they were really young.

These kids have the first right to immigration reforms before us entrepreneur engineers who went to school here in the US. I tried to make this point in an interview I gave to a San Jose newspaper but the journalist conveniently forgot to mention it since it didn't fit well with the story.

I know that Mark, Ron, Merissa or Drew are not responsible for these kids and it doesn't affect their business while a start-up visa definitely does but I think the immigration reforms needs to be looked from both the perspectives.

Of course, as an immigrant, start-up founder who went to Berkeley I am all for making it easier for me to stay in this country. But I am ok with playing second fiddle to kids who are as American as anyone but don't have an American passport just because they spent the first few years of their life in a foreign country.

One thing is clear though. The immigration reform is an absolute need of the hour for America.

Re: Why I have issues with Mark Zuckerberg’s FWD.us

#36

Post by [deleted] »

trustfundbaby wrote: post #24
hobb0001 wrote: post #23

It's interesting how its always management that wants immigration reform; not the workers. On the one hand, it is management that does most of the hiring and are the ones tasked with finding talent. On the other hand, they're also tasked with keeping budgets low...

> It's always interesting how its always management that wants immigration reform, not the workers I'm curious to know how you arrived at this conclusion? How many h1-b workers or students on f-1 visas have you actually spoken with that do not want immigration reform, because I can tell you that I've lived that life and know close to a hundred of those people and even though its a small sample size I don't know any o…

[deleted]

Re: Why I have issues with Mark Zuckerberg’s FWD.us

#37

Post by [deleted] »

fyi80 wrote: post #29
kozikow wrote: post #26

One of his arguments in my opinion is invalid. He tries to suggest that if USA would simply invest in education, especially in middle America, then USA would produce enough engineers to not have to import engineers from abroad. However, my view is that not everyone, regardless of education, can be good software engineer. Almost all software engineers I know used to be very top at mathematics and science since the ver…

And everyone who could be a good software engineer is succeeding? None of that talent is wasted on excessive obligations, or crime, or malnourishment?

[deleted]

Re: Why I have issues with Mark Zuckerberg’s FWD.us

#38

Post by cmccabe »

tl;dr: he has issues with FWD.us because he believes that letting in more skilled immigrants is unfair to people who are unskilled. He also has some vague concept that skilled immigrants take jobs away from uneducated Americans. Because, you know, hiring 10 high school drop outs can totally replace one foreign PhD whom you can't hire because of immigration bullshit.

Re: Why I have issues with Mark Zuckerberg’s FWD.us

#39

Post by bradleyjg »

prayag wrote: post #35

Om misses the biggest problem with the way immigration reform is seen in the Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley talks about start-up visa and visa for American college graduates but doesn't touch on the lives of the immigrant kids who came here illegally when they were really young. These kids have the first right to immigration reforms before us entrepreneur engineers who went to school here in the US. I tried to make t…

The DREAM Act has been introduced in every Congress for over a decade. It has gotten close a few times, but is stuck in the politics of 'amnesty'. Executive branch defered action has been in place for almost a year now, and while it's strictly inferior to a legislative solution it's far better than nothing.

All of which is to say that there is a well developed political lobby on both sides of that issue. While I'm sure the DREAM Act supporters wouldn't mind getting big checks from SV millionaires and billionaires thier voices would add little to the debate. Similarly, the major private sector unions and national buisness association, after much back and forth forged a compromise on blue collar temporary work visas sensitive to the needs of both.

It makes sense for the tech industry -- both the owners and workers -- to speak out on topics that are salient to them. That's where they are most knowledgable and where thier opinions will be most respected. There is no need to feel guilty or try and shame anyone for concentrating on the those issues.

Re: Why I have issues with Mark Zuckerberg’s FWD.us

#40

Post by chosen »

snowwrestler wrote: post #8

Zuckerberg is not in a bubble...he has been meeting with immigration policy experts for years. He understands his role in the national immigration debate, and he is playing it very well. Many people have the goal of comprehensive immigration reform. To get it accomplished will take a lot of pushing from a lot of different directions. Zuckerberg, as the CEO of one of the most famous "new economy" innovative companies,…

That's the problem - you have to meet and talk with people whose lives depend on this, not with experts.
Post reply on HN