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The end of Philosophy

nytimes.com

31–39 of 39 posts

Re: The end of Philosophy

#31
post #9

Am I missing something or does this have nothing to do with "new atheism"? "It challenges the new atheists, who see themselves involved in a war of reason against faith and who have an unwarranted faith in the power of pure reason and in the purity of their own reasoning." It seems to me that the position of "new atheists" is that science is the only (known) universal means of answering the questions that it is capab…

Sam Harris covered this stuff in The End of Faith. It's depressing how few critics of "new atheists" have read the people they have beef with; then again, it's even more depressing how few atheists make successful communication a priority.

They don't have to proselytize.

Re: The end of Philosophy

#32
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like The End of History; a silly title for a silly piece of writing.

"The Singularity is an end-of-history notion. And it is showing its age, as most end-of-history notions do." -- Bruce Sterling (video link: http://fora.tv/2004/06/11/Bruce_Sterling#chapter_01 )

When Francis Fukuyama said "the end of history" he meant that liberal democracy is the evolutionary end point of nation states. Meaning:

1. any nation state that is now a liberal democracy will remain so because there is nothing more advanced for it to evolve into

2. any nation state that is not a liberal democracy is merely not yet a liberal democracy and will eventually evolve into one

The singularity is the point at which rate of technological evolution becomes so rapid that it is essentially incomprehensible. That doesn't sound like an end of history notion to me.

Re: The end of Philosophy

#34
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you apologizing? Did you make reality this way? Are you God?! Or are you just condescending me? If you think that there is some objective morality that is inherent to the universe, the burden of proof is very much on you to show that, not on me to disprove it. I'm going to disagree with you on this point, because not only the existence of objective morality, but the existence of object truth of any kind depen…

I don't understand how you claim that your sense of objective morality is on the same footing as utility of the senses and the fundamental correctness of human reason in terms of accepting them as a foundation for reasonable argument. humans from different cultures will sense many things the same way. a small black dot will be a small black dot and so forth. likewise, i can believe that ancient japan would have inven…

I can believe that ancient japan would have invented a computer if given sufficient time in some alternate reality. once the appropriate questions had been asked and answered of course.

The real issue is not whether Japan would have invented a computer in an alternate reality, but whether we have invented it in ours, and whether what we call a computer really is what we perceive it to be. If human reasoning was fundamentally incorrect, we wouldn't be able to detect it.

Re: The end of Philosophy

#35
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you apologizing? Did you make reality this way? Are you God?! Or are you just condescending me? If you think that there is some objective morality that is inherent to the universe, the burden of proof is very much on you to show that, not on me to disprove it. I'm going to disagree with you on this point, because not only the existence of objective morality, but the existence of object truth of any kind depen…

All right, I think I sort of screwed up my first post, because it failed to convey my most fundamental feeling about "morality": I think that the word "morality" (also "ethics") is, to a truly ridiculous extent, not well-defined. That's why I asked you to define the word -- I can't argue about it otherwise. I really don't think there's any good definition other than, "A system of judging actions to be either 'right'…

I think that the word "morality" (also "ethics") is, to a truly ridiculous extent, not well-defined.

Or rather, people are dreadfully inconsistent about what they call morality. I can give you a definition of ethics, morality is trickier so I may be able to only summarize a few points.

Ethics is a system of determining right action for individuals and groups of individuals from a set of commonly held values. For example: if equity is a value, then preferential treatment becomes a wrong. Ethics works by finding common values and working from them. The fact that value is subjective has no bearing; ethical systems merely look for a common denominator and work from there. Different ethical systems are the product of applying different philosophical methodologies to different values sets.

Morality is very different. It is the object of the assumption that there is a universal set of rules and values to which all human beings must, for some reason or other, assent. What this universal code consists of, isn't necessarily universally accepted, but what is universally accepted, or nearly so, is the assumption that there is a universal code. That a physicalist, or mechanistic account of the universe cannot account for this is evident. That very few human beings actually accept a physicalist or mechanistic worldview, even if they claim to do so, is also evident. It presupposes some kind of telos, or universal purpose.

So what morality is, is this: an objective standard of behavior that is (instinctualy) assumed by everybody, agreed (in total; the vast majority hold a large number of principles in common and differ only on application, hence the need for ethics) upon by few, and can only be fully accounted for by some kind of metaphysics.

Edit: spelling and word usage

Re: The end of Philosophy

#36
post #31
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sam Harris covered this stuff in The End of Faith. It's depressing how few critics of "new atheists" have read the people they have beef with; then again, it's even more depressing how few atheists make successful communication a priority.

They don't have to proselytize.

True, the income and security brought in by followers is a powerful incentive. Whereas if you communicate clearly about atheism all you get is fewer people hating you for no damn reason.

Re: The end of Philosophy

#37
post #36
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't have to proselytize.

True, the income and security brought in by followers is a powerful incentive. Whereas if you communicate clearly about atheism all you get is fewer people hating you for no damn reason.

I am glad that I live in a country more tolerant to atheism. Berlin has even been described as the world capital of atheism in the Economist.

"[The former chancellor of Germany, Schroder,] did not add the optional phrase So wahr mir Gott helfe ('so help me God') when sworn in as chancellor for his first term in 1998." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schr%C3%B6der)

Re: The end of Philosophy

#38
post #12

To paraphrase the article: Dear children, your silly worldview of objective rights and wrongs is outdated and wrong. Morality is purely subjective, a matter of taste. I provide no evidence or reasoning for my opinions but I do expect you to be challenged and wowed by their far-reaching consequences. If morality is purely subjective, then issues such as as gay marriage become purely a matter of taste. One person has t…

Effectively this means that there is no such thing as right and wrong and what we are left with is shallow consensus (as opposed to a reasoned consensus) at best, and application of force at worst.

I think that society defines morality - society defines what is wrong and what is right, and its criteria is fuzzy and shallow and unreasoned, and fluctuates over time. Since society is an aggregation of individuals, a society's definition of right and wrong is an aggregation of it's members definition of right and wrong (sometimes enforced by law.)

Slavery becomes right, because I'm a sociopath with a gun.

That's effectively what happened in the 18th century in Europe - it wasn't considered a problem then, but it is now because people's (and therefore society's) outlook on slavery has changed.

I don't think that the fact that society decides what is right and wrong is right (as in, it doesn't square with my own personal definition of what is morally right), but I can't think of more accurate definition that is also practical (and practicable.)

Re: The end of Philosophy

#39
post #8

I don't agree with his premise that people can't use reason to come to good moral principles, and then act on them. Figuring out morality his way--by emotion--would be abdicating your power to make positive change and leaving everything to random influences upon your life. A woman was mean to me as a kid? Well, I'll hate women. Everyone I know goes to church, and I have come to love Jesus? Well, that must be the righ…

On the other hand, you're an evolved being with innate biases. There are solid natural reasons that most people share similar moral intuitions (read: emotions). If these intuitions did not exist, there would be no axioms from which to deduce other moral actions. Brooks' premise is naturalistic, that man is more complex than an avatar of pure reason. I think he's right.

"If these intuitions did not exist, there would be no axioms from which to deduce other moral actions."

It is mistaken to deduce morality from emotions, because (for one thing) emotions are largely a product of random chance. Emotions haven't been "validated."

Rather, we should deduce morality from reason and reality. We /ought/ to do what /is/ good for human life. (This isn't self evident, but I do think it's true.)

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