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Everything I know about design I learned playing Starcraft

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Re: Everything I know about design I learned playing Starcraft

#31

Post by hkmurakami »

alanfalcon wrote: post #30
hkmurakami wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, so I would have called it "Macro-style", "200/200 style", "late-game oriented play", "turtle-style" or any number of expression that would distinguish playstyle and gameplan from the specific terminology: Macro. "Macro" on its own is a misnomer imo. Also, I don't think "timing attack" is an appropriate synonym for "rush", since timing attacks tend to occur in the early-mid game (typically off of two bases) where…

But macro is what it's called in the community.

"macro" != "macro-style"

Re: Everything I know about design I learned playing Starcraft

#32

Post by vacri »

The title should be "How to shoehorn a simile".

Using photoshop is like carrying water with a bucket. You've got to decide 'rush' or 'macro'. Maybe it's not important that you get all that water to the destination and losing slop over the side in a poorer quality carry is fine. Other times you'll need that bucket to arrive dry with a higher quality carry - you might be carrying over carpet, for example.

Before you start your carry you go through the starting steps to ensure a clean, empty bucket - checking that there's no holes, that the handle isn't loose or broken, that it's clean and doesn't contain anything from a different carry.

A good water bucket carrier has higher APM than a poor carrier, knowing how best to manipulate the bucket in the well and developing appropriate muscles for filling and carrying. The best water carriers can carry a bucket in each hand!

There is no best bucket - pick one to suit the task at hand. Wood is heavier, but more beautiful, a relic of a bygone era, and is the preferable material for use in specialised cases like saunas. Metal is sturdy and less prone to failure - easier to fill than a plastic if you're using a deep well as it won't float as easily. Plastic is light, cheap, and plentiful, which may be all you need, plus it is more flexible.

And of course, carrying water is a task best suited for collaboration. You get to socialise, and it goes faster if everyone pitches in.

Re: Everything I know about design I learned playing Starcraft

#33

Post by arrrg »

hkmurakami wrote: post #31
alanfalcon wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But macro is what it's called in the community.

"macro" != "macro-style"

If context makes clear what is meant by “macro” then it will often be used without any further explanation, i.e. “macro” can mean both just “macro” and “macro style”, depending on context.

I would argue that is the case here, though your (honestly baffling) confusion might be a reasonable point against that.

Re: Everything I know about design I learned playing Starcraft

#34

Post by mikeprasad »

Very awesome analogies to process and approach to design. I wonder though, at what point does the "build order" approach break down? At some point you need to evolve/differentiate in design. I wonder if there's a repeatable process/approach to drive that progression?

Re: Everything I know about design I learned playing Starcraft

#35

Post by calhoun137 »

hkmurakami wrote: post #20

>In Starcraft, nearly everything has a keyboard shortcut, and can be accessed in milliseconds. Professional players have average APM's of around 300. During intense battles, with their careers on the line, they can get up to 500 or 600. That's almost 10 separate moves per second! EAPM (Effective APM) is more pertinent than raw APM. APM arguments have raged on for more than a decade (since Broodware at the very least)…

There is a difference between EAPM, and effective EAPM, in the sense that if you have a high EAPM but do the wrong thing, you still lose the game. SC2 has a way of training you to actually think and make decisions faster, in addition to typing faster, and this is something that I have found to be valuable for increasing my productivity as a programmer.

Re: Everything I know about design I learned playing Starcraft

#37

Post by thatthatis »

noname123 wrote: post #22

Starcraft is important but IMO it's not about APM. But build order, at start of each game, there's a series of steps you need to do like the optimum workers to build, to mine Vespene gas; at which time to send workers to build expansion base, build marines/zerg's etc. And adjusting your strategy depending on map, other races on map and opponent style. Translated roughly to non-player's words, playing Starcraft is not…

You expressed it very well.

Re: Everything I know about design I learned playing Starcraft

#38

Post by vickytnz »

Hmm, this is basically pointing out that power users take the time to learn the craft and make shortcuts. I learned all this stuff not because of Starcraft but because mousing around a 21" screen (which was amazing back in 2007) started giving me RSI.

Funnily enough, a lot of designers tend not to bother with the shortcut stuff, arguably as they don't tend to be doing it day-in day-out.

On the other hand, an illustrator colleague knows all the shortcuts as well as I do (related: the one peeve I had with the near-future tech of Charlie Brooker's 'Be Right Back' ep of Black Mirror was this exact scenario, where an illustrator is using a highly gestural interface to do work. Her whole arms would be aching after just a few hours!)

Re: Everything I know about design I learned playing Starcraft

#39

Post by lgieron »

hkmurakami wrote: post #21
Retric wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a compeditive sport you can make games random but not easy. However changing the UI Makes different skills useful which shits the balance of power as well as the learning curve. Much like how the ideal GO and Chess players have related but different skills.

Introducing randomness is honestly a poor choice in competitive games. Warcraft 3 random item drop, Starcraft: Broodwar Scarab glitching & high ground random miss percentage, etc all made the competition somewhat less compelling.

Magic:the Gathering and Poker have lots of randomness in them and yet they're both very successful competitive games.

Re: Everything I know about design I learned playing Starcraft

#40

Post by lostlogin »

CyrusL wrote: post #8
baak wrote: post #5

I used to hear this argument from WoW players a lot. "It's skills you use in every business management, so it's just like work!" Go ahead and list it on your resume if you believe it.

An important distinction is that there are no characters to level-up in Starcraft, so you can't get "better" by just investing mindless hours into the game. The start of a Starcraft game is just like the start of a Chess game: both newbies and pros have the same options in front of them. You have to objectively improve as a player to win more Starcraft. I never played WoW, but I would believe that there are some diff…

Yes re management. I had a great year or two of Travian. The depth of the game just got deeper with time - straying into politics, game/browser exploits, timing etc. managing people and picking your friends took considerable time and skill. The semi cheating that went on with multiple accounts, borrowed accounts, stolen accounts etc just added to the game. What happened on the map only represented about 50% of what was going on at the time I left. I suspect if I stayed longer, that percentage would have shrunk. Not because i what was going on was changing, but because i was beginning to see the whole rather than the obvious. The ultimate time sink. I loved it.
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