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Why (Not) Do a PhD in Computer Science?

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Re: Why (Not) Do a PhD in Computer Science?

#31

Post by ironchef »

simonh wrote: post #10
sc0rb wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know of three PhD's in comp sci that went straight into Goldman Sachs (and one hedge fund) where they immediately started earning far more than those of us that left Uni with our Bachelors. They work in high frequency trading mainly using Java.

Interesting. I wouldn't have though Java was suitable for HFT due to garbage collection pauses playing havoc with your system determinism and performance reliability. I supported a derivatives trading system written in java that was canned due to performance issues, and where I am now we had java FIX protocol gateways that we've replaced with C++ components, again for performance reasons. I'm not saying java has perf…

Nah...there's tons of workarounds these days which make things way faster / less latent. Couple quick examples:

* look at memory mapped data in java (basically using sun.misc.Unsafe lets you deal with things like malloc and free)

* look at increasing use of primitives and collections that utilize primitives appropriately

* properly profile / size your eden space

yada yada ... i think a lot of HN people have generally just wrote off java as not as fast as C, not as productive as python/ruby, and not as exciting as lisp, haskell, FOTM. Java's a fine tool like anything else...just need to use it appropriately.

Re: Why (Not) Do a PhD in Computer Science?

#32

Post by seanmcdirmid »

arethuza wrote: post #21
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't those kinds of industrial research jobs also usually require the kind of publication track record that you have to acquire in academia to survice? Yes. > Do industrial research labs really employ freshly minted PhDs - who probably haven't acquired the most important skill in modern research: the politics of attracting funding/backing? Yes. How do you expect freshly minted PhDs to learn the art of attracting f…

The black arts of attracting funding seems to be what junior academics spent considerable amounts of time doing when I worked in academia - mind you that is going back a bit so wouldn't surprise me if things have changed a lot.

Keep in mind parent was talking about industrial labs, where funding is obviously a bit different. I don't really know much about academia beyond what I hear from peers.

Re: Why (Not) Do a PhD in Computer Science?

#33

Post by niggler »

"I do it because I'm intellectually curious (aka I like new stuff)"

I hear that a lot, and I hear the argument that industry doesn't give you that type of opportunity, but I firmly disagree: in many places, people with bachelors or masters degrees are put in research positions in setups that resemble the Bell Labs of lore. And while most software shops aren't doing new things, a growing number of large firms are exploring new frontiers. (and even some finance firms, god forbid)

"a PhD teaches you how to ask the right questions"

What you need is a mentor, and a surprising number of people who decided not to do a PhD have the right mindset and actually help train people.

"Take this argument too far and you find yourself in theoretical math,"

Many of the people at the forefront of industry work find themselves delving in theoretical math (as a really oft-cited example, functional programming drawing from category theory)

"a lot of smart people tend to do research and PhDs. "

A lot of smart people decide that the PhD is heavily bureaucratic and that it would be easier to do more intellectually stimulating work in industry.

"I do it because of vanity"

Fair enough :)

Re: Why (Not) Do a PhD in Computer Science?

#34

Post by jheriko »

... because you will learn more by working in the wild, including why many real-world engineers have a vague disdain of academia - especially in the genuinely difficult fields.

Maybe it differs away from software engineering - but my experience of grads, even Oxbridge PhDs is that I will code circles around them with what I learned off my own back in my spare time... and mainly because I learned it off my own back - or in many cases reinvented solutions without any hints or assistance.

Sorry. I'd like courses to produce valuable, employable engineers - my experience is that they do not.

Re: Why (Not) Do a PhD in Computer Science?

#35

Post by rmk2 »

jheriko wrote: post #34

... because you will learn more by working in the wild, including why many real-world engineers have a vague disdain of academia - especially in the genuinely difficult fields. Maybe it differs away from software engineering - but my experience of grads, even Oxbridge PhDs is that I will code circles around them with what I learned off my own back in my spare time... and mainly because I learned it off my own back -…

... because you will learn more by working in the wild, including why many real-world builders have a vague disdain of academia - especially in the genuinely difficult fields.

Maybe it differs away from architecture - but my experience of grads, even Oxbridge PhDs is that I will build circles around them with what I learned off my own back in my spare time... and mainly because I learned it off my own back - or in many cases reinvented solutions without any hints or assistance.

Sorry. I'd like courses to produce valuable, employable builders - my experience is that they do not.

Re: Why (Not) Do a PhD in Computer Science?

#36

Post by lutusp »

barry-cotter wrote: post #18
lutusp wrote: post #2

You need to be aware that PhDs often make less or the same income as a "professional" degree holder does (for a higher student loan burden). That means if you feel that the experience will be personally enriching, the fact that it might not be financially enriching may not matter.

1. Professional degree does not need scare quotes. 2. US professional degrees have dropout rates of 3%, approximately. The Ph.D. with lowest dropout rate, engineering, has a 35% dropout rate. Pretty much everyone who can be admitted to a Ph.D., funded is a guaranteed admit to a pro programme that will on average make them more money. One should do a Ph.D. if one will not regret it even if one never holds a faculty po…

> Professional degree does not need scare quotes.

That wasn't meant to attract undue attention to it, only because the term has no universal definition.

Apart from economic issues I agree with your points. If someone expects the Ph.D. to pay off in straight economic terms, different story.

> ... guaranteed admit to a pro programme that will on average make them more money.

By "pro" did you mean Ph.D.? If so, not any more, not necessarily. The economics are changing, and the combination of rising costs and the fact that a Ph.D. candidate is out of the job market longer, conspire together to make it a less attractive option. There are cases where a Ph.D. graduate makes less money than a professional degree in the same field.

I'm not disagreeing (and I'm not sure I understood you), only saying things are changing and the claim isn't true across the board.

Re: Why (Not) Do a PhD in Computer Science?

#37

Post by wjnc »

sc0rb wrote: post #8
wjnc wrote: post #3

Never do a PhD for the money. Ever. It's not worth it, compared to using your skills to get a good education BSc / MSc and then start your career. You miss so many years of good income, plus income growth and will always stand out as the theoretical type. That being said: it's all about curiosity and people. So if you're curious and have the time / money... go for a PhD!

I know of three PhD's in comp sci that went straight into Goldman Sachs (and one hedge fund) where they immediately started earning far more than those of us that left Uni with our Bachelors. They work in high frequency trading mainly using Java.

True. My point was a bit more subtle: those of my (former) co-workers with PhD's in physics or maths were extra extra smart and really great programmers... But they didn't start their PhD wanting to go into finance! You start because you want and love to do real research. As a bonus there are skills that can (also) make you big money. But there are quicker ways to the Goldman Buffet.

Re: Why (Not) Do a PhD in Computer Science?

#38

Post by billy8988 »

Ok..I did it in the early 90s. In my case, It was nothing but a slave labor. What I meant is, while I was doing the same kind of work that I currently do for corporations, I got paid a pittance while the school and the project sponsor gained much. Having said that, I would do it all over again. I really enjoyed the campus life 5 more years! :)

Re: Why (Not) Do a PhD in Computer Science?

#40

Post by geebee »

barry-cotter wrote: post #18
lutusp wrote: post #2

You need to be aware that PhDs often make less or the same income as a "professional" degree holder does (for a higher student loan burden). That means if you feel that the experience will be personally enriching, the fact that it might not be financially enriching may not matter.

1. Professional degree does not need scare quotes. 2. US professional degrees have dropout rates of 3%, approximately. The Ph.D. with lowest dropout rate, engineering, has a 35% dropout rate. Pretty much everyone who can be admitted to a Ph.D., funded is a guaranteed admit to a pro programme that will on average make them more money. One should do a Ph.D. if one will not regret it even if one never holds a faculty po…

Quick nit-promote (nit-picking in order to agree even more), elite professional programs generally have attrition rates even lower than 3%. Columbia law school has an attrition rate of .3%. Yale and Stanford law schools have no attrition. [1]

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2008/04/law-school-r...

[1] just noticed that these are 1L attrition rates. So actual rates may be a bit higher.

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