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Europe Announces Bailout For Cyprus — Bank Depositors Get Instant 10% Tax

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Re: Europe Announces Bailout For Cyprus — Bank Depositors Get Instant 10% Tax

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They would have never gone to a farmer and taken 10% of their grain. Except this actually used to happen a lot in European countries in the Middle Ages. Farmers would still pay taxes to the king, and they'd have to pay in goods if not in gold.

> Except Pretty sure the OP was talking about the present times...

Have people changed significantly since then?

Plus, he was saying that prior to banks being how they are now, things were different. That prior period encompasses the middle ages.

Re: Europe Announces Bailout For Cyprus — Bank Depositors Get Instant 10% Tax

#32
In some ways, this isn't a great plan. It punishes those who saved their money while rewarding those who consumed their income. It also means that people will have to start assuming that wealth taxes on bank account balances may happen in more jurisdictions and that they should move their money into what they deem to be safe jurisdictions. This could do harm to other countries whose banking systems have been having trouble.

This is not some sort of illegal seizure - and wouldn't even be in the United States. While we normally tax income or consumption, governments can and do tax wealth. In the United States, property taxes are quite normal. What is the difference between charging someone x% of their house value in taxes and charging someone x% of their bank account balance in taxes? It's mostly normative: we're used to taxes on physical property like houses, but not used to taxes on cash that we carry in banks. If the government decided tomorrow to switch from property taxes to bank account taxes, would you care? Mostly, it would depend on where the bulk of your wealth is. If it were in your home, you would welcome the change.

I think the reason that they chose to go after the bank balances is that a lot of it is foreign-owned. In many ways, this is much better for the Cypriot people. They may not like seeing their bank accounts go down by 6-10%, but this method spreads the burden to a lot of foreigners. If they went the route of imposing a high property tax, they would have to shoulder a much higher burden.

It's also easier to implement, in a certain light. If you impose a new tax of, say, 2% on the value of real property holdings, people are going to lose their houses when they can't come up with the money for the tax. You don't want that: it would just be chaos. Taxing the bank accounts is taxing a liquid asset. You know they have the cash to cover 10% of their bank account balance because, well, it's their bank account balance.

Since they're going to impose the levy before the banks open on tuesday (monday being a banking holiday) and banks putting a withdrawal limit of 400 Euros on customers, it looks like it can be implemented.

In many ways, it's the easiest, quickest successful tax that they could impose. And, while it will cause a lot of uproar from Cypriots, it's probably better than any other measure for them. If the government were to try and raise the money from other means (whether a real property tax, higher consumption taxes, higher income taxes, etc.), the burden would fall on residents more than this tax will. Similarly, this tax will hit the rich harder than the poor. If they raised VAT, income tax, or real property tax, the rich could move elsewhere and be spared a lot of it.

EDIT: I'm going to respond to some replies here.

First, I never said this was a good plan. I said that it would be easy and quick from an administrative standpoint. The ECB doesn't seem to want something long and drawn out or get into a situation where legislative processes and elections throw everything into chaos. Since Cyprus wants the bailout, the ECB holds a lot of the cards. We've seen how governmental changes can throw a wrench into the bailout agreements. Because this levy can be implemented "overnight", it's easy and doesn't rely on a legislature agreeing on austerity measures for many years.

This solution will be a betrayal of people's trust, it will hurt people. It will make people think twice about putting their money in banks. In fact, this is something that parts of Latin America face. However, are there alternatives for coming up with 5.8 billion Euro that would be better?

Frankly, in order to criticize well, you have to bring up other solutions against the chosen solution. This move is bad. No one thinks this is a happy move. It has cons. People will lose savings (including money they were counting on having). People will distrust banks for the foreseeable future. It will create resentment and anger. It will be bad. So, what would be better?

Now, one can argue that defaulting on the debt would be better - that's certainly a position to take. However, assuming that Cyprus doesn't want to default, how else should they have secured the ECB bailout (assuming that one needs to raise 5.8 billion Euro to do so)?

Re: Europe Announces Bailout For Cyprus — Bank Depositors Get Instant 10% Tax

#33
post #4

Money in the bank is not your money anymore. By the time of credit cards, banks moved from being a custodian of money, to a service provider that can cut anyone off from their service. Sure, this time it was not the banks itself but rather the government that did this, but they could only do this because banks and government has stopped seeing money in the bank as belonging to the person who put it there. They would…

This sure seems like it would be a violation of a person's right to be secure from seizure of property in the USA. Does anyone with a legal background have any insight they want to share? I am having trouble wrapping my brain around the idea that money I have in the bank could be seized to pay for someone else's fuckup. I know inflation can sort of do that on a society-wide scale, but seizure of post-tax income from…

>This sure seems like it would be a violation of a person's right to be secure from seizure of property in the USA.

The US government made a 50%+ profit by forcing people to sell their gold in 1933:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102#Effect_of_...

>Executive Order 6102 required all persons to deliver [gold] owned by them to the Federal Reserve, in exchange for $20.67 ... The price of gold from the Treasury for international transactions was thereafter raised to $35 ... resulting in an immediate loss for everyone who had been forced to surrender their gold ... The resulting profit that the government realized funded the Exchange Stabilization Fund

Re: Europe Announces Bailout For Cyprus — Bank Depositors Get Instant 10% Tax

#34
post #4

Money in the bank is not your money anymore. By the time of credit cards, banks moved from being a custodian of money, to a service provider that can cut anyone off from their service. Sure, this time it was not the banks itself but rather the government that did this, but they could only do this because banks and government has stopped seeing money in the bank as belonging to the person who put it there. They would…

This sure seems like it would be a violation of a person's right to be secure from seizure of property in the USA. Does anyone with a legal background have any insight they want to share? I am having trouble wrapping my brain around the idea that money I have in the bank could be seized to pay for someone else's fuckup. I know inflation can sort of do that on a society-wide scale, but seizure of post-tax income from…

I cannot comment on the rights of a person in the EU against seizure of personal assets. In the United States there is a right to due process of law if the government wants to deprive citizens and some other classes of people (long conversation) of property (money or actual physical property) or freedom (jail). This can happen through legislative action and (sometimes) by the fiat of an government agency like the IRS, but when either of these happen people can get the matter heard in court. However, at times Due Process can be a fuzzy concept, like when property is seized as part of certain drug related or anti-terrorist laws. TL;DR: This type of taking would be harder to do in the US unless you are a terrorist of a drug dealer/smuggler/or in possession of drugs.

Re: Europe Announces Bailout For Cyprus — Bank Depositors Get Instant 10% Tax

#35
post #32

In some ways, this isn't a great plan. It punishes those who saved their money while rewarding those who consumed their income. It also means that people will have to start assuming that wealth taxes on bank account balances may happen in more jurisdictions and that they should move their money into what they deem to be safe jurisdictions. This could do harm to other countries whose banking systems have been having t…

In no way was this a good plan. It doesn't net a significant amount of money in terms of EU GDP, and it enrages and frightens a lot of people.

The difference between a government switching what it taxes and this is that the former goes through intense oversight and debate by the elected officials of the country involved. People can influence the decision and it is an internal matter.

In this case, it was an external force that decided the seizure was necessary. More, it was a German-led decision. Germany imposing its will on the southern countries hasn't been well received in the past and I don't believe it will be now.

Re: Europe Announces Bailout For Cyprus — Bank Depositors Get Instant 10% Tax

#36
post #4

Money in the bank is not your money anymore. By the time of credit cards, banks moved from being a custodian of money, to a service provider that can cut anyone off from their service. Sure, this time it was not the banks itself but rather the government that did this, but they could only do this because banks and government has stopped seeing money in the bank as belonging to the person who put it there. They would…

They would have never gone to a farmer and taken 10% of their grain. Except this actually used to happen a lot in European countries in the Middle Ages. Farmers would still pay taxes to the king, and they'd have to pay in goods if not in gold.

I think that is just a normal tax in a different form.

Re: Europe Announces Bailout For Cyprus — Bank Depositors Get Instant 10% Tax

#37
post #17

Is Satoshi Nakamoto's secret identity José Manuel Barroso? It's hard to imagine a way for the government to drive people to Bitcoin any harder (short of officially adopting it).

an old lesson that has been forgotten needs to be relearned. Money is not meant to be saved. Money is for earning and spending. Saving should be done in real tangible assets.

Actually, money is specifically designed for saving.

Re: Europe Announces Bailout For Cyprus — Bank Depositors Get Instant 10% Tax

#38
post #32

In some ways, this isn't a great plan. It punishes those who saved their money while rewarding those who consumed their income. It also means that people will have to start assuming that wealth taxes on bank account balances may happen in more jurisdictions and that they should move their money into what they deem to be safe jurisdictions. This could do harm to other countries whose banking systems have been having t…

Seeing as I'm a student with a big loan and limited savings that will go towards my first proper flat deposit.

If I lived in Cyprus, would the government now take some 6% of my savings and leave my loans untouched?

Anyone?

Re: Europe Announces Bailout For Cyprus — Bank Depositors Get Instant 10% Tax

#39

Is this really any different than US Monetary policy that leads to continual inflation making your savings worth less over time?

Yes.

One is intended as an encouragement to invest and, it works for the most part(401k, roth, 529, etc.. etc..) Most Americans know that that just sticking your money under a mattress is stupid, so we actively invest. Just about anyone in the US with disposable income invests in some way. This is something that benefits society as money that would normally be sitting idle is out in the market being used. And, how it gets used is determined by society and the markets, not a bureaucrat.

This, on the other hand, is simply confiscation. There's no plan, no incentive, nothing. It's a short sighted implementation that will hurt things in the long run. What's everyone who's had their money taken from them without warning now thinking? They certainly aren't considering options that allow them to stay active in this country's markets. Quite the opposite, I assume.

Re: Europe Announces Bailout For Cyprus — Bank Depositors Get Instant 10% Tax

#40

Is this really any different than US Monetary policy that leads to continual inflation making your savings worth less over time?

Well, for one thing, inflation doesn't cause bank runs. Even if you suppose that inflation is really an asset tax, this tax in Cyprus has just been evaded by anyone who's been keeping their money stuffed under the mattress.

Greece, Italy, Spain, etc. will now be lucky if they don't themselves start having a problem with bank runs. Arguably it won't happen elsewhere, but who can say for sure?

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