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Square Slapped With Cease And Desist By Illinois State Department

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Re: Square Slapped With Cease And Desist By Illinois State Department

#31

Post by tptacek »

thinkcomp wrote: post #29
tptacek wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What issue do you want to have go away? The need to post bonds if you're going to offer a product to the public that involves you taking their money, storing it, and forwarding it to someone else? Or just the specifics of those requirements? I remember the kernel of your argument against CA's law being that their bond requirement wasn't transparent; that the stated requirements were "minimums" that could be ratcheted…

Thomas, First, it's nice to know that you're interested in my views the subject. Before ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3595814 ), you did not seem to be. You have summarized my position incorrectly. Generally, there are two major distinct requirements that the MTA sets forth: tangible net worth and surety bonds. These requirements are independent and cumulative (not mutually exclusive). There are further two…

Talking about money transmitter laws makes sense on stories about money transmitter laws, but doesn't make sense on other threads.

You've basically restated what I said but in much greater detail. Thanks.

I'm choosing my words less carefully than you are. When I said the states could "answer" your objection, I meant that the points you raised about transparency could be blunted by becoming very transparent but also more onerous.

Re: Square Slapped With Cease And Desist By Illinois State Department

#32

Post by thinkcomp »

tptacek wrote: post #31
thinkcomp wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thomas, First, it's nice to know that you're interested in my views the subject. Before ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3595814 ), you did not seem to be. You have summarized my position incorrectly. Generally, there are two major distinct requirements that the MTA sets forth: tangible net worth and surety bonds. These requirements are independent and cumulative (not mutually exclusive). There are further two…

Talking about money transmitter laws makes sense on stories about money transmitter laws, but doesn't make sense on other threads. You've basically restated what I said but in much greater detail. Thanks. I'm choosing my words less carefully than you are. When I said the states could "answer" your objection, I meant that the points you raised about transparency could be blunted by becoming very transparent but also m…

I'm sorry, but that "other thread" was entitled "Major Bitcoin exchange shuts down, blaming regulation and loss of funds." You have harassed me relentlessly on this topic and others, as recently as a few days ago when you falsely accused me of having a sneaky ulterior motive for putting information in the public domain at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5282532), and I am tired of it.

I wrote a comment about financial regulation on a thread about financial regulation and you launched a personal attack against me for it, as you often do.

Just now, I did not restate what you said. I explained in great detail why the state of affairs is NOT as you say.

Perhaps in the future you could choose your words more carefully.

Re: Square Slapped With Cease And Desist By Illinois State Department

#33

Post by [deleted] »

thinkcomp wrote: post #32
tptacek wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talking about money transmitter laws makes sense on stories about money transmitter laws, but doesn't make sense on other threads. You've basically restated what I said but in much greater detail. Thanks. I'm choosing my words less carefully than you are. When I said the states could "answer" your objection, I meant that the points you raised about transparency could be blunted by becoming very transparent but also m…

I'm sorry, but that "other thread" was entitled "Major Bitcoin exchange shuts down, blaming regulation and loss of funds." You have harassed me relentlessly on this topic and others, as recently as a few days ago when you falsely accused me of having a sneaky ulterior motive for putting information in the public domain at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5282532 ), and I am tired of it. I wrote a comment about fi…

[deleted]

Re: Square Slapped With Cease And Desist By Illinois State Department

#34

Post by tptacek »

thinkcomp wrote: post #32
tptacek wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talking about money transmitter laws makes sense on stories about money transmitter laws, but doesn't make sense on other threads. You've basically restated what I said but in much greater detail. Thanks. I'm choosing my words less carefully than you are. When I said the states could "answer" your objection, I meant that the points you raised about transparency could be blunted by becoming very transparent but also m…

I'm sorry, but that "other thread" was entitled "Major Bitcoin exchange shuts down, blaming regulation and loss of funds." You have harassed me relentlessly on this topic and others, as recently as a few days ago when you falsely accused me of having a sneaky ulterior motive for putting information in the public domain at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5282532 ), and I am tired of it. I wrote a comment about fi…

I'm not sure what the other thread you're pointing to has to do with money transmission laws. There, you were enlisting volunteer support for an effort that happened to be remunerative to yourself. You didn't mention that in your comment; I wished you had. (Note also that by the end of the thread the goalposts had also moved from Plainsite to Asymptote.) You then replied to the effect that I'd accused you of operating the entire effort as some kind of scam, which I of course hadn't done.

That exchange, like this one, is characteristic of the way you communicate on HN. You could just respond to questions or even refute them aggressively. Instead, you take things personally and create smokescreens.

It's an unfortunate habit because in this particular discussion you are probably in greater command of the facts than I am, and yet you spend credibility on pointless innuendo that is easily knocked down.

(I obviously have my own expansive portfolio of unfortunate HN habits, but unlike you I'm not appealing to HN for help in any particular cause, so I think it matters less for me.)

Re: Square Slapped With Cease And Desist By Illinois State Department

#35

Post by DannyBee »

thinkcomp wrote: post #26
DannyBee wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is your counsel withdrawing from that lawsuit?

Because I asked him to.

I mean no offense, but generally it's not a good sign for a lawsuit when counsel goes to withdraw this far into it.

Re: Square Slapped With Cease And Desist By Illinois State Department

#36

Post by thinkcomp »

tptacek wrote: post #34
thinkcomp wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but that "other thread" was entitled "Major Bitcoin exchange shuts down, blaming regulation and loss of funds." You have harassed me relentlessly on this topic and others, as recently as a few days ago when you falsely accused me of having a sneaky ulterior motive for putting information in the public domain at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5282532 ), and I am tired of it. I wrote a comment about fi…

I'm not sure what the other thread you're pointing to has to do with money transmission laws. There, you were enlisting volunteer support for an effort that happened to be remunerative to yourself. You didn't mention that in your comment; I wished you had. (Note also that by the end of the thread the goalposts had also moved from Plainsite to Asymptote.) You then replied to the effect that I'd accused you of operatin…

Obviously at this point we're talking about the fact that you are harassing me, not money transmission laws.

PlainSite's database of public information (which is freely available to non-lawyers) is a public good. Operation Asymptote is an attempt, from which I have no way of profiting exclusively or directly, to increase the value of that public good. The only way that I might profit from Operation Asymptote is indirectly. So your argument that the "effort that happened to be remunerative to [my]self" is plainly false and deliberately misleading and possibly damaging to my reputation.

Your insightful comments about computer security on this forum are a public good. You might profit from them if someone finds them one day and agrees with or wants to know more about something you say--but so might anyone else.

The difference here is that you are (wrongly and publicly) accusing me of improper conduct for failing to note that I might profit from more public information being available, and I am not accusing you of anything because helping to improve the commons is supposed to help everyone profit, and I am glad to learn about computer security from you, and to also see you make a living from it.

So this is my last warning. Stop harassing me.

Re: Square Slapped With Cease And Desist By Illinois State Department

#37

Post by Natsu »

thinkcomp wrote: post #32
tptacek wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talking about money transmitter laws makes sense on stories about money transmitter laws, but doesn't make sense on other threads. You've basically restated what I said but in much greater detail. Thanks. I'm choosing my words less carefully than you are. When I said the states could "answer" your objection, I meant that the points you raised about transparency could be blunted by becoming very transparent but also m…

I'm sorry, but that "other thread" was entitled "Major Bitcoin exchange shuts down, blaming regulation and loss of funds." You have harassed me relentlessly on this topic and others, as recently as a few days ago when you falsely accused me of having a sneaky ulterior motive for putting information in the public domain at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5282532 ), and I am tired of it. I wrote a comment about fi…

Thomas has a contrarian bent. I've disagreed with him as much as anyone, I think, but I wouldn't take it too personally.

Thanks for all the information, though. That was a fascinating read. FWIW, I'm on your side and would like to see some sensible regulation at the federal level, rather than a patchwork of state laws.

Re: Square Slapped With Cease And Desist By Illinois State Department

#38

Post by PeterisP »

thinkcomp wrote: post #20

Money transmission laws are complex. (See http://www.thinkcomputer.com/corporate/whitepapers/heldhosta... .) They're designed to be complex. Most of the laws passed in the past twenty years have been designed by one man, Ezra Levine ( http://www.mofo.com/ezra-c-levine/ ), who is now a lawyer at Morrison & Foerster. His client is The Money Services Round Table (TMSRT), and its membership comprises some of the largest…

I'm not US-legislation expert, but similar legislation with similar intent applies here in EU - and it's quite clear.

Payment processor and/or agent status should apply if you are handling data and information only and not for a moment become 'holder' of the money - i.e., if the money passes directly to, say, a bank account held by the recipient company based on your data.

If the money at any time held in your name and you just have data saying that $X belongs to A, $Y belongs to B - then even according to common sense you should be licenced and post the bonds. And to the extent that banks are exempt in payment regulations, they have the same (or stricter) requirements in their regulation as credit institutions - i.e., they don't put bonds based on payment volumes but they have capital requirement regulation that provides a similar assurance of solvency.

Re: Square Slapped With Cease And Desist By Illinois State Department

#39

Post by tptacek »

thinkcomp wrote: post #36
tptacek wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what the other thread you're pointing to has to do with money transmission laws. There, you were enlisting volunteer support for an effort that happened to be remunerative to yourself. You didn't mention that in your comment; I wished you had. (Note also that by the end of the thread the goalposts had also moved from Plainsite to Asymptote.) You then replied to the effect that I'd accused you of operatin…

Obviously at this point we're talking about the fact that you are harassing me, not money transmission laws. PlainSite's database of public information (which is freely available to non-lawyers) is a public good. Operation Asymptote is an attempt, from which I have no way of profiting exclusively or directly, to increase the value of that public good. The only way that I might profit from Operation Asymptote is indir…

o.O

Re: Square Slapped With Cease And Desist By Illinois State Department

#40

Post by thinkcomp »

DannyBee wrote: post #35
thinkcomp wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I asked him to.

I mean no offense, but generally it's not a good sign for a lawsuit when counsel goes to withdraw this far into it.

It has nothing to do with the lawsuit. I'll write a more detailed essay about the reasons why one day. Today just isn't the day.
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