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Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

jacquesmattheij.com

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Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#31

Post by pknight »

I don't have the data in terms of startups to back it up but there are a couple reasons why someone who is suffering from depression can actually thrive. Some people suffering from depression may be especially good at working on hard problems and seeing them through, spotting issues (not being blinded by them) and bringing creativity.

On the flipside, people who are perfectly happy in regular jobs might crumble in startup situations because it does invite a great deal more struggle.

I'm not saying that people suffering from depression should go into startups for that reason and I agree that startup success is typically low. I don't find the message that compelling though, as if a depressed person will be appreciatively better off with a 'steady job' (to the extent such jobs still exist). Soulless jobs are a big reason people get depressed in the first place.

If you do suffer from depression, regardless of your occupation it should be a priority to figure out how to manage it, to have a strong support system in place and put your health first.

Winston Churchill suffered from terrible bouts of depression but he that didn't stop him from doing what he felt he needed to do. I certainly wouldn't base a career choice on a sweeping generalization.

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#32

Post by bayesianhorse »

oceanician wrote: post #26

This article is unbelievably wrong! If you've tech skills, but you don't find working in a noisey office is for you, then you've really got to find a way to earn an income that works for you. Carrying on, and forcing yourself to apply for more and more jobs, where you have to compete with those in their early 20s who are willing to work 12 hour days, and havn't the burden of 15 years of technology changes in their he…

There is a big problem with this article:

The writer assumes too much: * Depressive founders don't get treated * Avoiding doing a start up minimizes failure and stress * Minimizing stress and failure minimizes risk of suicide

All these assumptions can be argued with.

Also: Never confuse the reason a suicidal person gives for his contemplated/attempted suicide with the cause of a problem.

People talk bullshit about their emotions all the time. Depressive people do it in a very particular way that is easy to confuse with rationality. They don't take their lives because their business fails. It's way more complicated, even if they say there is exactly one reason...

The kind of reasoning in this article can be taken a notch further and urging depressive patients not to take any job beyond minimal wage....

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#33

Post by bayesianhorse »

dmoney wrote: post #30

Suffering from depression? Don't get into that relationship. When you've invested years of your life, and a part of yourself, into someone, and you lose that person, it's harsh. Also, don't have children, because that could be stressful too. BS! Some aspects of startups are probably unhealthy for people prone to depression: 80 hour weeks, risking everything on a business model without revenue, the culture that says y…

"Risking" everything seems to be part of the "lean startup" mentality. Incubators and early stage funding is intended to trade equity for exactly that risk.

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#34

Post by mbesto »

jacquesm wrote: post #20
DanBC wrote: post #15

> With some regularity I read articles about some amiable, accomplished and brilliant young kid that decides to end their life in the start-up scene This is confirmation bias. You don't hear about all the other people completing suicide. > If a start-up fails, then to some degree it may feel like you yourself have failed, even if that is absolutely not the case. There's a risk that this is extended to everything. "If…

I knew these people, and I know a lot of people. Judging by the difference between start-up types committing suicide and people that I know outside of the start-up scene there is a huge difference between the two groups. Of course it is possible that my experience is an outlier, but it is a pretty extreme one (5:0, on groups of 100's of individuals).

Any specific examples?

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#35

Post by supercoder »

How about if you have depression then maybe get the depression looked at and managed ?

It's terrible advice to just go and 'get a stable job' as you're clearly just treating the symptom not the cause.

There's probably lots of things you shouldn't do if you have depression, that's why it's not a good thing to have depression and you should seek help, not run away.

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#36

Post by bayesianhorse »

jacquesm wrote: post #20
DanBC wrote: post #15

> With some regularity I read articles about some amiable, accomplished and brilliant young kid that decides to end their life in the start-up scene This is confirmation bias. You don't hear about all the other people completing suicide. > If a start-up fails, then to some degree it may feel like you yourself have failed, even if that is absolutely not the case. There's a risk that this is extended to everything. "If…

I knew these people, and I know a lot of people. Judging by the difference between start-up types committing suicide and people that I know outside of the start-up scene there is a huge difference between the two groups. Of course it is possible that my experience is an outlier, but it is a pretty extreme one (5:0, on groups of 100's of individuals).

It's still bias. This is something medical professionals have to be reminded of over and over again: Your perception is not a double-blind study! You have no randomized control group and not enough cases.

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#37

Post by vickytnz »

vickytnz wrote: post #8

Perhaps a better way of phrasing this is: suffering from depression? Don't do that startup unless you have a safety net (of course, that could apply to people without depression too). Hell, I'd say that applies to doing a PhD (I'm in one right now) or anything that does mean you have to deal with a lot of ambiguity on your own. In those situations it's all too easy for even the most mentally secure person to start ne…

Oh, and to add to my own comment, I'd also say you could swap out "depression" to "ongoing medical condition".

Similar thing, it's fine if you manage it, if you don't things could get a whole lot worse (and other people will end up hating you for either carrying your load or being let down)

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#38

Post by jacquesm »

mbesto wrote: post #34
jacquesm wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew these people, and I know a lot of people. Judging by the difference between start-up types committing suicide and people that I know outside of the start-up scene there is a huge difference between the two groups. Of course it is possible that my experience is an outlier, but it is a pretty extreme one (5:0, on groups of 100's of individuals).

Any specific examples?

No, I won't go into specific examples. This was tough enough to write as it is without opening up old wounds.

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#39

Post by jacquesm »

bayesianhorse wrote: post #36
jacquesm wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew these people, and I know a lot of people. Judging by the difference between start-up types committing suicide and people that I know outside of the start-up scene there is a huge difference between the two groups. Of course it is possible that my experience is an outlier, but it is a pretty extreme one (5:0, on groups of 100's of individuals).

It's still bias. This is something medical professionals have to be reminded of over and over again: Your perception is not a double-blind study! You have no randomized control group and not enough cases.

There is a fair chance of that. But since this is my blog I will write whatever the hell I please, it's not a double blind study over 20 years and it does not pretend to be.

It's a plea. Which may stop the next friend or person that I'm in contact with from taking a right turn for a dead end in some broom closet somewhere.

Enough bright lights have been extinguished in this fashion over the last couple of years.

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#40

Post by bayesianhorse »

This is basically medical advice, given by someone without any medical training.

Would these people he is talking about have committed suicide if not in a start-up?

There is a link between stress and depression, and between depression and suicide. But for a lot individuals, both links just don't exist. Life is complicated. Sweeping advice is as bad as no advice.

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