Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery • Hacker News Board

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#31

Post by grecy » Thu, Feb 14, 2013, 8:30 PM UTC

davidiach wrote: post #20

JPKab wrote: post #7

"Convincing? No. His other chart shows the mile range dipped below zero, which would indicate the car could not move. " Wow, I wish I could be as sloppy and awful at my job as these journalists are. Had he actually bothered to truly read the response he is commenting on, he would see that Musk states that, when the car's range dips below zero, it is running on reserve power. It takes some miles after "zero" for the c…

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Broder might not have wanted to "be evil". He might be like the guy who doesn't actually want to hurt the company he is working for but still spends all his day playing games at work. Given that his job was to write an accurate review, the fact that he didn't really want to wait until the car is fully charged and was bored driving the car at normal speed and so on, we can…

> Given that his job was to write an accurate review

Why do you assume that?

His job was to attract readership and hits for the NYT. Nothing does that better than controversy.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#32

Post by DanBC » Thu, Feb 14, 2013, 8:30 PM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #7

"Convincing? No. His other chart shows the mile range dipped below zero, which would indicate the car could not move. " Wow, I wish I could be as sloppy and awful at my job as these journalists are. Had he actually bothered to truly read the response he is commenting on, he would see that Musk states that, when the car's range dips below zero, it is running on reserve power. It takes some miles after "zero" for the c…

Broder turned the heat up before turning the heat down. But he didn't mention turning the heat up; he only mentions having to suffer with a cold cabin.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#33

Post by fleitz » Thu, Feb 14, 2013, 8:31 PM UTC

gfodor wrote: post #21

I guess it's time to muddy the waters. The truth is in the middle! Of course, the entire debacle can be summed up with the following exchange: Q: "How many miles did you have left to drive on the final leg?" Broder: "61" Q: "And how many miles did your car tell you that you could travel before recharging?" Broder: "32" Of course, Broder claims that Tesla told him it was OK to leave. I think this is bullshit, but will…

I'll second this...

If he was in death valley, or the arctic with no cell reception, and it was 61 miles to the next station and the car said 32 no sane person would ever begin that journey.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#34

Post by jlgreco » Thu, Feb 14, 2013, 8:32 PM UTC

OGinparadise wrote: post #19

The problem I have with "he made it up": unless you have a computer keeping track of miles, speed and temperature, you are going to be "lying" about it. For example, I could easily say that I was riding at 67 mph but the computer point out that I actually went as high as 72, as low as 52 a lot of the time. Was I lying? Who the hell is going to remember or write about every speed change on a 500 mile trip? Was it a sc…

> I, personally, would NOT want a car that is so specific about the speed, cabin temperature and so on

If you fill a ICE car up with less gas you need to get to your destination and attempt to make it anyway, you are going to need to be just as particular about your technique.

This should not be a news flash to anybody who has ever driven.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#35

Post by OGinparadise » Thu, Feb 14, 2013, 8:32 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #27

OGinparadise wrote: post #19

The problem I have with "he made it up": unless you have a computer keeping track of miles, speed and temperature, you are going to be "lying" about it. For example, I could easily say that I was riding at 67 mph but the computer point out that I actually went as high as 72, as low as 52 a lot of the time. Was I lying? Who the hell is going to remember or write about every speed change on a 500 mile trip? Was it a sc…

When you say you are limping along at 45 mph you shouldn't be driving at over 50 mph. > 45 mph or 52mph, it's the same crap to me. Would that work with traffic police?

Would that work with traffic police?

who cares, but usually yes, at least in US (you go fast, you slow, fast...and police are looking for the worst offender) . My point is: a car that has to be driven with a gazillion, million, billion specific instructions or else it's a brick, maybe it isn't for me or many others. "Your car died and you're in the middle of nowhere because you went 5mph over the recommended by Tesla speed," isn't for me. Isn't this an expensive car too?

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#36

Post by Shivetya » Thu, Feb 14, 2013, 8:33 PM UTC

gfodor wrote: post #21

I guess it's time to muddy the waters. The truth is in the middle! Of course, the entire debacle can be summed up with the following exchange: Q: "How many miles did you have left to drive on the final leg?" Broder: "61" Q: "And how many miles did your car tell you that you could travel before recharging?" Broder: "32" Of course, Broder claims that Tesla told him it was OK to leave. I think this is bullshit, but will…

did he think he added 32 more miles? I wonder if this is still a problem of UI and such...

still its a 100k car and Musk is quibbling over temperature settings... really?

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#37

Post by onethumb » Thu, Feb 14, 2013, 8:34 PM UTC

I thought the most convincing part of Elon's post was his 3rd bullet point, which relies on no data outside of the article, and which this Atlantic Wire journalist ignores entirely:

"In his article, Broder claims that “the car fell short of its projected range on the final leg.” Then he bizarrely states that the screen showed “Est. remaining range: 32 miles” and the car traveled “51 miles," contradicting his own statement (see images below). The car actually did an admirable job exceeding its projected range. Had he not insisted on doing a nonstop 61-mile trip while staring at a screen that estimated half that range, all would have been well. He constructed a no-win scenario for any vehicle, electric or gasoline."

The car said it would go 32. It went 51. Broder claimed this "fell short". Clearly it didn't.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#38

Post by grecy » Thu, Feb 14, 2013, 8:34 PM UTC

OGinparadise wrote: post #19

The problem I have with "he made it up": unless you have a computer keeping track of miles, speed and temperature, you are going to be "lying" about it. For example, I could easily say that I was riding at 67 mph but the computer point out that I actually went as high as 72, as low as 52 a lot of the time. Was I lying? Who the hell is going to remember or write about every speed change on a 500 mile trip? Was it a sc…

> 45 mph or 52mph, it's the same crap to me.

In Australia, you'll get a $100 speeding ticket for going 7MPH over the limit. You need to drive more carefully.

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/usingroads/penalties/speeding.html

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#39

Post by fleitz » Thu, Feb 14, 2013, 8:34 PM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #36

gfodor wrote: post #21

I guess it's time to muddy the waters. The truth is in the middle! Of course, the entire debacle can be summed up with the following exchange: Q: "How many miles did you have left to drive on the final leg?" Broder: "61" Q: "And how many miles did your car tell you that you could travel before recharging?" Broder: "32" Of course, Broder claims that Tesla told him it was OK to leave. I think this is bullshit, but will…

did he think he added 32 more miles? I wonder if this is still a problem of UI and such... still its a 100k car and Musk is quibbling over temperature settings... really?

Go to a BMW dealership, take an M5 for a test drive, when the car says it was 32 miles left try to drive it 60.

It's a 100k car and it won't make that feat either.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#40

Post by OGinparadise » Thu, Feb 14, 2013, 8:36 PM UTC

jlgreco wrote: post #34

OGinparadise wrote: post #19

The problem I have with "he made it up": unless you have a computer keeping track of miles, speed and temperature, you are going to be "lying" about it. For example, I could easily say that I was riding at 67 mph but the computer point out that I actually went as high as 72, as low as 52 a lot of the time. Was I lying? Who the hell is going to remember or write about every speed change on a 500 mile trip? Was it a sc…

> I, personally, would NOT want a car that is so specific about the speed, cabin temperature and so on If you fill a ICE car up with less gas you need to get to your destination and attempt to make it anyway, you are going to need to be just as particular about your technique. This should not be a news flash to anybody who has ever driven.

If you fill a ICE car up with less gas you need to get to your destination and attempt to make it anyway, you are going to need to be just as particular about your technique.

Bad analogy, this http://www.statisticbrain.com/gas-station-statistics/ says that they are 121,446 gas stations in USA. It takes 5 minutes to add fuel for another 300 or so miles and they accept credit cards :)