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Learning how to attract women to web development

devbootcamp.com

31–40 of 74 posts

Re: Learning how to attract women to web development

#31

Pairing an activity with another highly-gendered activity will most definitely change the gender ratio of your combined activities. Here 'yoga' is playing the role 'pizza and beer' does at most hackathons - I know there's tons of exceptions, but generally speaking, women like yoga more than men, and men like eating pizza and drinking beer more than women. I bet you could adjust the gender ratio even more if you mixed…

Well, their stated goal is a 1:1 ratio of men to women. While their actual result of a 40/60 men to women ratio is closer to their goal than their estimated 85/15 ratio, they still didn't reach it.

If having a predominately male crowd at a hackathon is a bad thing, doesn't it also follow that having a predominately female crowd is bad as well?

N.B.: I wouldn't call 40/60 predominate, so to me, it seems like their methods were nearly good enough.

Re: Learning how to attract women to web development

#32

Pairing an activity with another highly-gendered activity will most definitely change the gender ratio of your combined activities. Here 'yoga' is playing the role 'pizza and beer' does at most hackathons - I know there's tons of exceptions, but generally speaking, women like yoga more than men, and men like eating pizza and drinking beer more than women. I bet you could adjust the gender ratio even more if you mixed…

I'm going to be the jerk that says using yoga and pedicures as a means to bring women in might actually be more alienating than welcoming to many of us. I have no interest in any of those activities intermingling, and I think it sends a message that we need to "genderize" things to make them relevant or appealing. Now, even though I'm theoretically being targeted, I feel even more like the odd [wo]man out.

Sell me on the fact that I'll be leaving with a product I want to make - something generic like a blog or a store or a social media site. Sell me on the fact that I will be able to know how to design it, maintain it and expand on it by graduation. Sell me on the fact that I'm also going to be around total novices and where gender ratios are equaled out. Show me success stories of men and women alike.

Everyone has ambitions and dreams. Not everyone wants to do poses and color their nails.

Re: Learning how to attract women to web development

#33
post #9

> One of our goals at Dev Bootcamp Chicago is to change the ratio of women in software development: we want a 1:1 ratio in our cohorts. Why? That's a serious question. My hobbies include writing, blacksmithing, cooking, and ceramics. In writing, around half the people are women. In blacksmithing perhaps 3% are women. In cooking probably 90% of the blogs I read and people who take classes are women. In ceramics it's a…

You would generally want to "change the ratio" of something if you felt there was untapped potential or interest that wasn't being expressed, often due to some systematic or structural barrier.

As an example, I can tell you, I go to a lot of startup events and they are often centered around activities like ping pong or beer drinking. I know many women interested in entrepreneurship and try to get them to go with me, but they tell me they don't like ping pong or would feel uncomfortable. And, at the events themselves, there are typically only one or two women who actually came.

Changing the ratio would involve creating an atmosphere that would encourage women who already have an interest to act on it and thus be better represented.

Re: Learning how to attract women to web development

#34
post #31

Pairing an activity with another highly-gendered activity will most definitely change the gender ratio of your combined activities. Here 'yoga' is playing the role 'pizza and beer' does at most hackathons - I know there's tons of exceptions, but generally speaking, women like yoga more than men, and men like eating pizza and drinking beer more than women. I bet you could adjust the gender ratio even more if you mixed…

Well, their stated goal is a 1:1 ratio of men to women. While their actual result of a 40/60 men to women ratio is closer to their goal than their estimated 85/15 ratio, they still didn't reach it. If having a predominately male crowd at a hackathon is a bad thing, doesn't it also follow that having a predominately female crowd is bad as well? N.B.: I wouldn't call 40/60 predominate, so to me, it seems like their met…

Oh, I wasn't making any judgements.

Male crowd, female crowd, whoever the organizers want at their event is perfectly fine by me - after all, it's their event. I'm just interested in the tools they use to get wherever they want to be.

Re: Learning how to attract women to web development

#35
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Because I know personally very talented women who want to, and are capable of learning web development, and the mere current ratio of males in the industry is intimidating them. Web development is a profession, not (just) a hobby, and if women move away from it just due to the fact it's already a high ratio of males then it's a problem

Why do we not have the same goals for automotive mechanics? I don't personally know any women who'd want to be mechanics (but then neither do I know any women who want to be developers in any form), but I'm sure they exist. Are they also reluctant to start their dream job simply because of men? If so, that's a problem. (It also seems oddly sexist to me...)

I’d actually guess that this is because we aren’t automotive mechanics.

I’d bet there is at least a small group of automotive mechanics that are interested in increasing diversity in their field.

Re: Learning how to attract women to web development

#36
post #32

Pairing an activity with another highly-gendered activity will most definitely change the gender ratio of your combined activities. Here 'yoga' is playing the role 'pizza and beer' does at most hackathons - I know there's tons of exceptions, but generally speaking, women like yoga more than men, and men like eating pizza and drinking beer more than women. I bet you could adjust the gender ratio even more if you mixed…

I'm going to be the jerk that says using yoga and pedicures as a means to bring women in might actually be more alienating than welcoming to many of us. I have no interest in any of those activities intermingling, and I think it sends a message that we need to "genderize" things to make them relevant or appealing. Now, even though I'm theoretically being targeted, I feel even more like the odd [wo]man out. Sell me on…

I agree with minicole that "female" activities like pedicures are off-putting even insulting. I am watching my girlfriend, who is an accomplished artist, move into web development. She has a whole different set of values and weighting of those values than I do or do the male developers I work with. I firmly believe that there is a huge benefit in letting women apply their values to projects and letting them know that their values are appreciated. My experience is that this results in a more cooperative collaborative environment.

Re: Learning how to attract women to web development

#37
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Because I know personally very talented women who want to, and are capable of learning web development, and the mere current ratio of males in the industry is intimidating them. Web development is a profession, not (just) a hobby, and if women move away from it just due to the fact it's already a high ratio of males then it's a problem

Why do we not have the same goals for automotive mechanics? I don't personally know any women who'd want to be mechanics (but then neither do I know any women who want to be developers in any form), but I'm sure they exist. Are they also reluctant to start their dream job simply because of men? If so, that's a problem. (It also seems oddly sexist to me...)

> Why do we not have the same goals for automotive mechanics?

A lot of industries that have issues attracting certain kinds of people don't have explicitly diversity goals as a part of their makeup. But that doesn't mean that people aren't trying to break into those industries and have a career there.

Keep in mind that the kind of work you do isn't just influenced by your hobbies and likes, but also by what is considered acceptable for a certain person based on gender/race/etc., stereotypes about kinds of work, and classism (among other things).

Re: Learning how to attract women to web development

#39
If I wanted to take up a hobby or skill that I felt was sort of "woman's only" thing, like knitting, I would be uncomfortable joining a stitch 'n bitch group initially, and I'm sure a lot of women would have reservations about a guy popping in to their knit nights. I'm sure some would be thrilled that a guy would take an interest, but it would be a novelty. I would happily learn on my own through Internet tutorials, but I wouldn't have a support community to learn from and bounce ideas off.

I think the same sort of feeling would surround women trying to break into a male-dominated activity.

I try to think about what might convince me to take steps into a knitting program (assuming I actually wanted to learn). If I expected that it would be completely women I would be more uncomfortable, but if it was more 'professional' and less casual, I would probably be less anxious. I think a professional environment with a sort of "we're here to learn, not chat, not network" would make things easier because there's less social pressure, it's more focus on the task.

Likewise, I think a "Beer and Pizza knitting workshop" would be as much a turn-off. I think it's just the idea that it's an emphasis on the social side of it. I know what I am doing is socially different, and the more social and friendly the atmosphere is the more awkward it is to picture.

For instance, if I'm going to a class, and the image I conjure is a row of desks or something, someone teaching a technique, maybe coming by individually, helping with a difficult process, answering questions. That's pretty neutral, I can picture myself there. If the image I conjure is a bunch of guys standing around the tailgate of a pick-up truck drinking beer, eating pizza, belching, and talking about their colorwork and cast-on techniques, I'm going to feel uncomfortable. Not only that, I'm going to feel patronized by the class.

Now, obviously regardless of the circumstances, the class is not going to be at all like either of those images in my head. But what would cause me to choose to sign up or not has far more basis on that picture.

I think if you want to encourage women to join your class, advertise it in a way that makes it look like it's not judgmental, like it's not patronizing. Something that's not some apparantly watered down "web design for women" class. Keep it professional, respectful, and above board. Include women in your advertising material.

If I wanted to learn to knit, and I came across a class that wasn't billed as a sort of chatty woman's group but instead just a class on techniques; if it made it apparent in their description that men were welcome; and it wasn't directed at specifically ignorant men who wanted to learn so they could say they can do it too; then I would be comfortable going. Past that, I would have to know it exists, so if there was some sort of men's knitting mailing list that I was on, it would be a good place to send it.

Re: Learning how to attract women to web development

#40
post #9

> One of our goals at Dev Bootcamp Chicago is to change the ratio of women in software development: we want a 1:1 ratio in our cohorts. Why? That's a serious question. My hobbies include writing, blacksmithing, cooking, and ceramics. In writing, around half the people are women. In blacksmithing perhaps 3% are women. In cooking probably 90% of the blogs I read and people who take classes are women. In ceramics it's a…

I'm sorry, but "why?", by itself, is never a serious question. Except in cases of extreme naivety, it's a challenge, or worse, a roadblock, posed to force a reexamination of the underlying assumption. In this case, the underlying assumption is that the field of web development would be enhanced by a more equal ratio of women to men. Your "why?" implies a host of reasons, bounded only by imagination, why this might no…

> I'm sorry, but "why?", by itself, is never a serious question.

I asked my question crisply and respectfully, taking the pro-diversity folks as serious and being people of goodwill.

I think it's disrespectful of you, not to mention logically deficient, to immediately start your attack by asserting that my question was not intended in good faith.

If you can't muster up a simple, respectful response to a simple respectful question, it doesn't speak well of your self examination on this topic.

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