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Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

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31–40 of 253 posts

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#31
post #8

While I have enormous respect for Elon Musk, I would hope that Boeing engineers have just as thorough an understanding of the workings and safety implications of Lithium-ion batteries. Though Tesla's engineering is admittedly much more focused around battery technology, Boeing has decades of experience with aircraft electrical systems.

no doubt Boeing know that even if the batteries smoke and fail they wont be a threat to safety, but Musk has a better handle on marketing. If there is smoke on a plane or car people expect the worst, regardless of if it is actually a safety issue.

From my limited experience with smoke in cars, sadly they often turn to fire. Because, you know, like the first humans that did create fire, very often when a fire starts there's smoke...

I've seen a Saab in which the ashtray started to smoke and then before we could pull out (on the highway) the dashboard had flames and started to melt.

And I've seen a very nice and shiny Porsche 911 Carrera model 964 whose alternator belt did broke and then started "burning" on the engine. We smelled it and then we could see smoke. By the time we opened the engine trunk (with our fire extinguisher in hand) it was on fire. Funnily enough the repair were under warranty and there wasn't much to change (the trunk needed to be repaint and one or two pieces changed).

When there is unexpected smoke on a plane it is a safety issue.

Seen that a Boeing supplier's factory went up in flames due to a battery that took fire, I'm not exactly sure there's "no doubt Boeing know that even if the batteries smoke and fail they won't be a threat to safety". Same for the 16 hybrid sport cars that burst into flames on that parking lot due to batteries shorting.

I think that: "There's no smoke without fire" may be the sentence you're after ; )

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe a little OT but: Can you be considered an "ist" by having just a BS degree. That is, physicist, computer scientist, etc... If no, what is the requirement? Masters or PhD?

If no, what is the requirement? Masters or PhD Launching payloads to the ISS is good enough for me.

That was done by Musks company, not Musk alone.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#33
post #17
post #3

This is a very smart move by Musk from a PR point of view. By accusing Boeing's batteries of being fundamentally unsafe, he garners the maximum amount of trust from people who are concerned about battery safety, so that, when he immediately follows up with an explanation of why this couldn't happen on a Tesla, those very people are already leaning towards believing him. This goes over much better than attempting to d…

That makes me wonder what the next public and private PR moves should be for Boeing. My first guess is that their strategy should: A) Mention the tradeoffs involved with any engineering project B) Quickly accept blame instead of pushing it off to a supplier, a single employee and/or group (i.e., even if they have excellent reason and evidence for doing so) C) Make known their official stance on Elon's technical asses…

D) take EM's offer and source the batteries / solution to a joint boeing-spacex/tesla project and proudly proclaim that they're going to the world's experts on batteries, the same people that NASA trusts - SpaceX. This provides positive press for both companies and (provided they fix the problem) resolves any long term problems that might completely destroy their business (like having multiple planes catch fire or blow up).

All it will take is to swallow their pride for a moment and go to their competitor to help solve the problem.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#34
post #30
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just any MIT prof-- Sadoway is an expert metallurgist and leading researcher on energy storage in batteries. The article is also incorrect: Sadoway is part of the Materials Science Engineering Department. As an aside, his intro chemistry lectures are excellent, entertaining, and available online. http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/materials-science-and-engineering...

Except they're both clueless about battery use in planes.

Do batteries start working differently when they are placed in planes?

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#35
post #8

While I have enormous respect for Elon Musk, I would hope that Boeing engineers have just as thorough an understanding of the workings and safety implications of Lithium-ion batteries. Though Tesla's engineering is admittedly much more focused around battery technology, Boeing has decades of experience with aircraft electrical systems.

no doubt Boeing know that even if the batteries smoke and fail they wont be a threat to safety, but Musk has a better handle on marketing. If there is smoke on a plane or car people expect the worst, regardless of if it is actually a safety issue.

Li-ion fires tend to generate oxygen and so they are quite hard to put out. At 30,000 ft in the air I would consider this a fairly significant threat to safety.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#36
post #13

Elon seems to really want to get involved in this. Make no mistake, Boeing and SpaceX are fierce competitors for government contracts with very dubious selection processes. I'm saying this because he is a businessman, not an engineer. He seems to be getting a lot of information about the 787s batteries inner workings when the number of airplanes and suppliers are very limited. Edit: I'm not trying to be cynical, but…

while not a PE he is no slouch, he has a bachelor's in physics

Which covers 0 information about Li battery vs other kinds, especially considering when he earned his Bachelor's.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#38
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would appear that Boeing had a small oversight. Building a plane is not like building a car. There are different requirements. While some requirements overlap there are clear fundamental differences. Now, with that said, it could be that SpaceX and Tesla were allowed to focus more on batteries while Boeing had to improve jet engine efficiency as well as electrical battery usage.

SpaceX and Tesla try to keep as much of this in-house as possible, so they can maintain full oversight and make changes without unnecessary cost overhead. Boeing had 10 layers of contractors involved in this SNAFU. WWED = What Would Elon Do.

I fear Boeing's problems are not limited to these batteries.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#39
I think this is a very smart move by Musk. Grow the Tesla brand at very little cost, and potentially win a new client to sell batteries to.

Surely a Boeing contract would bring decent margins (they will now pay a premium for a quick fix) and much bigger scale economies for Tesla to further decrease their operating cost base.

Re: Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe

#40
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no doubt Boeing know that even if the batteries smoke and fail they wont be a threat to safety, but Musk has a better handle on marketing. If there is smoke on a plane or car people expect the worst, regardless of if it is actually a safety issue.

From my limited experience with smoke in cars, sadly they often turn to fire. Because, you know, like the first humans that did create fire, very often when a fire starts there's smoke... I've seen a Saab in which the ashtray started to smoke and then before we could pull out (on the highway) the dashboard had flames and started to melt. And I've seen a very nice and shiny Porsche 911 Carrera model 964 whose alternat…

I don't think smoke is the issue. It's toxic fumes. It's not like you can open a window.
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