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Aaron Swartz & A Culture of Denial: Depression & Suicide in Tech

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Re: Aaron Swartz & A Culture of Denial: Depression & Suicide in Tech

#31

"a technology sub-culture that mostly doesn’t understand — or care much — about mental illness." I'd go a step further and suggest that North American business culture, if not North American culture at large (and there's a good argument to be made that the latter is circumscribed by the former), is guilty of this as well. I don't think it's at all exclusive to IT.

This seems like just another instance of the excessively-specific adjective fallacy. I would submit that it is humanity as a whole that doesn't much understand or care much about mental illness.

Re: Aaron Swartz & A Culture of Denial: Depression & Suicide in Tech

#32
I'm surprised that no one seems to have connected Swartz's death to that of Ilya Zhitomirskiy of Diaspora, and the discussions about depression and tech (admittedly startups) http://betabeat.com/2011/11/u-cant-haz-sadz-the-hushed-dange.... While Swartz's death obviously has the connection to the horrible MIT/JSTOR situation, both remind us that tech doesn't always take kindly to those that make a mistake or don't live up to expectations, or pay enough attention to depression.

Re: Aaron Swartz & A Culture of Denial: Depression & Suicide in Tech

#34

I think stories like this should get more attention

People would rather blame something with a face (blaming the suicide on his lawyer, blaming videogame developers or the NRA for mass shootings, etc.) before admitting that the answer may lie in some science book that was too boring or dull for them to pick up and read. I'm glad this article actually addresses the problem directly: mental illness

I agree, there is another similar article on Mashable: http://mashable.com/2013/01/15/aaron-swartz-tech-world-depre...

Aaron could manage the trial if only he was regularly going to some sort of psychotherapy and was taking medicaments. The trial only facilitated his inner problems. Also he was primarily a hacker, and his biggest accomplishment is not JSTOR but RSS specification and web.py.

RIP Aaron

Re: Aaron Swartz & A Culture of Denial: Depression & Suicide in Tech

#35
In my experience at the companies I've worked at in the northeast people tend to talk about their struggles with mental illness with work folks. I've started working at a California company the last few years and folks are pretty open there as well.

I understand this is just my experience and I like to talk about the feeling side of being human at work (and do) so I may attract this kind of discussion and folks opening up.

Re: Aaron Swartz & A Culture of Denial: Depression & Suicide in Tech

#36
I don't like the argument here. I mean, in the technical sense.

It seems to attempt to lever facts about a specific situation into an otherwise unsupported generalization.

A couple of things leapt out at me - a) Aaron wasn't subject to the pressures of industry in Silicon Valley. He'd chosen a different path, and b) the author offers no support for his implication that the suicide rate in tech is higher than other industries.

The article didn't hang together for me and I'm left wondering if its just opportunistic drivel or a fair portrayal of a real concern that's been poorly argued.

Re: Aaron Swartz & A Culture of Denial: Depression & Suicide in Tech

#37

There are 3 battles which are being fought here, and they should ideally be separated out during discussions. The trial affected a brilliant person who pushed limits of the world around him, to his limits. At the same time there are thousands of convicts who have committed far more heinous crimes, and others who are being prosecuted harshly for crimes they didn't commit who don't follow this path. Aaron died not beca…

>Aaron died not because of the trial but because of depression Aaron died because he decided suicide was the best course of action. Given that the trial was what ultimately and unjustly squashed him, I would say he did die because of the harsh and unjust trial. Depression is not a cause, is a consequence.

Depression is not a cause, is a consequence.

It can be both. Someone linked to a post by Aaron describing his depression; at that period it didn't seem like he had any particular stressors causing it, it was just that he was depressed. He also said that things which normally improve the mood of a person who feels down did not improve his mood. That sounds like he had a genuine medical problem.

That does not mean that his response to the pending trial was entirely irrational; but it does indicate that the pending trial was not the only factor in play.

Re: Aaron Swartz & A Culture of Denial: Depression & Suicide in Tech

#38
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aaron struggled with depression long before he downloaded the JSTOR papers. How is depression a consequence of the trial?

I never said his depression was a consequence of the trial. What I did say is that is death is a consequence of the trial, i.e. without trial he would be alive (so far at least, but I don't think he was necessarily suicidal prior to the trial). What I did also say is that depression (when not an chemical imbalance problem at least) is a consequence of a series of events and therefore caused

when not an chemical imbalance problem at least

This qualifier undermines your point, since there was certainly evidence (as I posted upthread) that he did have a medical problem.

Re: Aaron Swartz & A Culture of Denial: Depression & Suicide in Tech

#39
To be clear, Aaron didn't work in Silicon Valley, or at a startup. Aaron was running his own well-funded team in an office in New York City at a 20 year-old company with good healthcare run by adults. It was not a high-stress work environment; I know, because I spent time on that team. I assure you that none of us deny the seriousness of depression, least of all me.

But Aaron was a very private person, and although he put a tremendous amount of pressure on himself to do the right thing, it could be hard to tell what his internal state was. At any rate, at the end, his efforts were focused almost completely on the trial, not on code. He spent time strategizing about how to bring around MIT and working with his lawyers. We surrounded him with help and were raising funds for his defense.

He had love and support. He kept on expressing optimistic sentiments, like "this is going to be a good year." He apparently acted cheerful the morning-of. His friends and partner are shattered. This Monday-morning quarterbacking does not help them.

Re: Aaron Swartz & A Culture of Denial: Depression & Suicide in Tech

#40
post #33

I'm part of this culture then because I don't believe in mental illnesses as defined by psychiatrists. Bring papers, proof and Science and we talk. http://arachnoid.com/psychology/myth.html

As a depressive, I can tell you the experience is certainly very real, even if much of psychology is on shaky ground, and it's certainly not a pleasant or healthy state of mind.

Are there not relatively good quality studies demonstrating certain treatments such as CBT are effective in treating depression + anxiety?

And surely a schizophrenic who hears voices and is detached from reality can be said to be mentally unwell? And aren't their studies demonstrating anti-psychotic pharmaceuticals are effective in those cases?

Though I am all for data-based scientific reasoning in psychology, I do think there's a place for practical, empirical techniques to treat things we don't quite understand yet (and perhaps don't hope to understand for some time, i.e. a detailed understanding of the operation of the brain).

When people have mental health issues they need help now, not in X years when we have sufficient understanding to make it a harder science.

I often wonder about the disdain those of the harder sciences have for the 'softer' ones. Physics, chemistry + friends have the wonderful advantage of being able to examine phenomena in the small, once you examine things in the large (such as medical studies, or sociological behaviour, etc.) there are often sufficient factors to make it analytically intractable + require fuzzy uncertain statistical techniques. Does that approach make a science 'soft' in your opinion?

I am not for the big fuzzy Freudian unfalsifiable theories that thus can't be tested by the way. Rather I think a lot of big problems require imperfect statistical techniques now which can be improved with a deeper understand later.

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