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Facebook’s dark matter: “secret” groups

toph.me

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Re: Facebook’s dark matter: “secret” groups

#31

Post by graue »

robbiep wrote: post #18
ryguytilidie wrote: post #15

Could I ask a simple question, not because I want to mock people or anything, but because I've been experiencing a similar phenomenon lately. Why does facebook make you hate people you know? I do generally find that most people I'm not actively great friends with at the moment tend to annoy the shit out of me with either bragging, illogical nonsense about things like politics, or just passive-aggressive teenager post…

It's an interesting psychological phenomenon. I think on some level the narcissism that Facebook encourages (look at me, I was here! My new shoes! A car we rented in Vegas! Look how drunk we are! On a plane to Hawaii!) especially for those that are not our close friends (and there's various debate about what our cortex is designed to handle in terms of social group siZe, and we all exceed it on Facebook) triggers jea…

The culture of Twitter is different, though. It isn't just Facebook with every update cut off at 140 characters. Many have noted that on Twitter there's a widely held expectation that you'll at least try to be witty. (You can't spell "Twitter" without "wit".) I'm no sociologist, but if I had to guess, there are probably two core reasons for the different culture:

1. Pseudonyms (or first-names only) are allowed and widely used. So there's less expectation that your Twitter social life has to match your offline social life.

2. The asymmetric follow model. You can follow someone without them following you. You can unfollow someone and then change your mind and follow again without them even noticing.

Combined, the dynamic of Twitter is that you follow based on interest, whereas on Facebook you friend based on acquaintanceship. That produces a pressure to be interesting.

I'm not a particularly heavy user of either Twitter or Facebook, so please weigh in if anyone thinks I got this wrong. But this is why they feel different to me.

Re: Facebook’s dark matter: “secret” groups

#32

Post by neumann_alfred »

ryguytilidie wrote: post #15

Could I ask a simple question, not because I want to mock people or anything, but because I've been experiencing a similar phenomenon lately. Why does facebook make you hate people you know? I do generally find that most people I'm not actively great friends with at the moment tend to annoy the shit out of me with either bragging, illogical nonsense about things like politics, or just passive-aggressive teenager post…

Why does facebook make you hate people you know?

No, but it makes me despise people I used to know from my youth/school, because apart from one person who became a reporter in Africa with a strong eye for justice, ALL OF US have become such mediocre, boring squares. I now understand where the spineless adults I used to wonder about come from, and that is depressing. They're us! D:

Re: Facebook’s dark matter: “secret” groups

#33

Post by graue »

Tuvaloon wrote: post #20
seiji wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know that Adams quote about the universe being bigger than you can impossibly imagine? Like, really, really big? Well, people are like that. Our brains kinda blur the world together and, without realizing it, our brains map other people onto our own experiences so we think people are kinda like us. Except they really aren't. Really, really, really aren't. In every day interactions, we gloss over, ignore, and excu…

>Two solutions: get much better (more complete, more self-actualized, more authentic) Reading your whole post, I think you mean 'more exactly like your favorite part of yourself', but otherwise, spot on. On FB you have to listen to everything everyone says to everyone, not just what they would choose to say to you to accommodate your sensibilities.

> On FB you have to listen to everything everyone says to everyone, not just what they would choose to say to you to accommodate your sensibilities.

What I find really interesting is that this communication model is a totally novel one. Clay Shirky observed[1] that before the internet, all communication mediated by technology was either one-to-one (telephone, telegraph) or one-to-many (newspaper publishing). Only now with Facebook can we type up casual remarks that are instantly seen by potentially 100 or more of our real-world acquaintances. I can't think of any form of offline conversation that's analogous.

This is exciting to me because it suggests that how Facebook works is not the final form of online communication. There's still plenty of room to discover new forms of interaction that more closely model what humans find comfortable. Maybe the secret groups discussed in the OP (which I'd never heard of until now) are an example of that.

[1] http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html

Re: Facebook’s dark matter: “secret” groups

#34

Post by drivebyacct2 »

I love "secret" groups. It's great for my close group of friends to share pictures that we would otherwise not put on the Internet (and no I don't need a lecture, I'm aware that's "risky". If my employer wants to fire me if a picture leaks out of there, their priorities aren't set correctly)

Re: Facebook’s dark matter: “secret” groups

#35

Post by nnq »

ryguytilidie wrote: post #15

Could I ask a simple question, not because I want to mock people or anything, but because I've been experiencing a similar phenomenon lately. Why does facebook make you hate people you know? I do generally find that most people I'm not actively great friends with at the moment tend to annoy the shit out of me with either bragging, illogical nonsense about things like politics, or just passive-aggressive teenager post…

Because Fb encourages behavior that gets "likes" and you dont have a "dislike" button to compensate. Let me explain: there is a class of behaviors that get quite a lot of "likes" but would also get even more "dislikes" if there was a "dislike" button. But these behaviors don't get negative feedback on Fb, but instead they get encouraged, even if less than others (and "less positive feedback" is not the same as "negative feedback"!). This brings the worst out of some people and makes them act stupid or childish on Fb even if they are not like this in real life! (I actually observed this change to worse in myself when I was an active Fb user, but only in retrospective, after giving up Fb for a time) Having a "dislike" button (but having it anonymously to prevent retaliation) would really change the dynamics, but it would also probably "prune" the network a bit, resulting in a less connected network and less engagement from each user, and I guess the Fb's "masterminds" thought of this and will not add such a feature because a "pruned" network is bad for their "business".

Fb the way it is now distorts and influences interpersonal relationships in a bad way, and this is why I use it with moderation (or mostly for business or advertising-like activities), reserving meaningful social interaction for other channels.

Re: Facebook’s dark matter: “secret” groups

#36

Post by graue »

tytso wrote: post #11

So now Facebook isn't passe because of secret groups, which aren't visible outside the group of people who are communicating privately? That was the same argument which pro-Facebook partisans pooh-poohed when it was made about Google+, interestingly enough. The only difference was that G+ started with private circles, and later added circles which could be shared and public communities, whereas Facebook started with…

> Facebook started with the "let it all hang out" model and then grafted privacy on later

That's not actually correct history. Facebook started with most data visible only to your friends, and gradually increased the visibility (given default settings) over time. You can track the changes here:

http://mattmckeon.com/facebook-privacy/

Also, when Facebook launched it was exclusive to Harvard, and then to Ivy League colleges, and then to all colleges, and even for a while after they opened it up it was still mostly young people. Your friends list was a closer match to your peer group. So it's possible that the audience people used to get with a friends-only post a few years ago isn't all that different from the audience you get with a secret group today. I remember when I was first finding out about Facebook around early 2009, it had the distinct feel of a private social club.

Re: Facebook’s dark matter: “secret” groups

#37

Post by tedunangst »

graue wrote: post #31
robbiep wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an interesting psychological phenomenon. I think on some level the narcissism that Facebook encourages (look at me, I was here! My new shoes! A car we rented in Vegas! Look how drunk we are! On a plane to Hawaii!) especially for those that are not our close friends (and there's various debate about what our cortex is designed to handle in terms of social group siZe, and we all exceed it on Facebook) triggers jea…

The culture of Twitter is different, though. It isn't just Facebook with every update cut off at 140 characters. Many have noted that on Twitter there's a widely held expectation that you'll at least try to be witty. (You can't spell "Twitter" without "wit".) I'm no sociologist, but if I had to guess, there are probably two core reasons for the different culture: 1. Pseudonyms (or first-names only) are allowed and wi…

I have never before heard that twitter posts are supposed to be witty. In any case, most of my friends' facebook posts would qualify, too. (you can also unfollow without unfriending people on facebook.)

Re: Facebook’s dark matter: “secret” groups

#38

Post by unconed »

nnq wrote: post #35
ryguytilidie wrote: post #15

Could I ask a simple question, not because I want to mock people or anything, but because I've been experiencing a similar phenomenon lately. Why does facebook make you hate people you know? I do generally find that most people I'm not actively great friends with at the moment tend to annoy the shit out of me with either bragging, illogical nonsense about things like politics, or just passive-aggressive teenager post…

Because Fb encourages behavior that gets "likes" and you dont have a "dislike" button to compensate. Let me explain: there is a class of behaviors that get quite a lot of "likes" but would also get even more "dislikes" if there was a "dislike" button. But these behaviors don't get negative feedback on Fb, but instead they get encouraged, even if less than others (and "less positive feedback" is not the same as "negat…

If you read through Facebook's guidelines for developers, there is a subtle but consistent undertone: don't do anything that makes people feel uncomfortable. Basically, they want Facebook to be a completely positive experience which strokes your ego to boost. No dislikes, no exposure to people you don't like. It's designed to be the ideal filter bubble.

Re: Facebook’s dark matter: “secret” groups

#39

Post by ryguytilidie »

seiji wrote: post #17
ryguytilidie wrote: post #15

Could I ask a simple question, not because I want to mock people or anything, but because I've been experiencing a similar phenomenon lately. Why does facebook make you hate people you know? I do generally find that most people I'm not actively great friends with at the moment tend to annoy the shit out of me with either bragging, illogical nonsense about things like politics, or just passive-aggressive teenager post…

You know that Adams quote about the universe being bigger than you can impossibly imagine? Like, really, really big? Well, people are like that. Our brains kinda blur the world together and, without realizing it, our brains map other people onto our own experiences so we think people are kinda like us. Except they really aren't. Really, really, really aren't. In every day interactions, we gloss over, ignore, and excu…

Brilliant response, ty.

Re: Facebook’s dark matter: “secret” groups

#40

Post by nnq »

unconed wrote: post #38
nnq wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Fb encourages behavior that gets "likes" and you dont have a "dislike" button to compensate. Let me explain: there is a class of behaviors that get quite a lot of "likes" but would also get even more "dislikes" if there was a "dislike" button. But these behaviors don't get negative feedback on Fb, but instead they get encouraged, even if less than others (and "less positive feedback" is not the same as "negat…

If you read through Facebook's guidelines for developers, there is a subtle but consistent undertone: don't do anything that makes people feel uncomfortable. Basically, they want Facebook to be a completely positive experience which strokes your ego to boost. No dislikes, no exposure to people you don't like. It's designed to be the ideal filter bubble.

That's the problem: their mindset is excellent for accelerated growth, but not for "healthy" social interaction. I hope they get over this "growth" phase or that their competitors get more traction (though they'll have to use the same "growth accelerating" tactics with their side effects). People need negative experiences too! Negative experiences make "good" people and keep people "good"! (if not overdosing them) "Goodness" is relative, but any sub-group can choose its definition of good/bad by liking/disliking certain things.

You can't have constructive or productive interaction without negative feedback, and even Fb knows this: as I last heard Fb engineers of some groups have a star rating and dislike buttons on their profiles to receive and give feedback about their work. And social interaction that's constructive or "productive", even just at an emotional level is the only one that should be encouraged! Anything else is basically informational masturbation, and you do get "blind" from too much of it...

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