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Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

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Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#31

Post by redwood »

jcampbell1 wrote: post #8

I have never understood residential solar. Seems like a gimmick. Why would I want these panels on my roof? It seems like hosting a server in your basement. It is appealing in theory, but silly in practice. If I just hosted my panels at a site where other people hosted their solar panels, you could probably install it for less than $1.00 per watt.

Real estate: if data centers could not stack servers vertically I imagine there'd be a business to renting out rooms in your homes to Google!

Also transmission to places where real estate is cheap is costlier than you'd think, largely due to red tape.

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#32

Post by redwood »

Red tape is a big part of the cost in the US and a problem that needs to be solved. Every locality and state has its own requirements, inspections, licenses etc.

A solar industry insider told me one of the worst solar markets in California is Palo Alto. Wealthy, green, suburban, techy: how can this be? The city runs its own utilities and makes it hard to install (apparently).

Regulations need to be streamlined.

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#33

Post by gte910h »

jcampbell1 wrote: post #8

I have never understood residential solar. Seems like a gimmick. Why would I want these panels on my roof? It seems like hosting a server in your basement. It is appealing in theory, but silly in practice. If I just hosted my panels at a site where other people hosted their solar panels, you could probably install it for less than $1.00 per watt.

It turns a surface that mostly transfers heat into your attic into a surface that transfers less heat into your attic and a great deal of electricity into your house during the part of the day that requires the most air conditioning.

If you live anywhere that's hot much of the year, it's a great deal, dropping your electric bill precipitously and recouping costs often in 2-4 years in that type of situation (as opposed to 7-12 in less reasonable areas). Also due to the nature of how cheap the electricity is during the day, you can set the A/C low during the day "coast" off the temperature differential during the night closer to a temperature you'd like.

Bad areas for solar: Constant cloud cover, Lots of overhanging Trees, far northern latitude. I would not use it in Alaska, Portland or Atlanta for these reasons.

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#35

Post by ndonnellan »

jws wrote: post #29
quanticle wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, on the flip side, Germany has massive tax subsidies for solar power. It's a lot easier to convince someone to get solar panels installed on their roof if you can show them a tax benefit for doing so. On a broader note, I don't get why we think it's a good thing for Germany to have this much solar energy. Unlike, say, Spain, the German climate is not especially well suited to solar power. It's too far north, as a…

The notion that Germany is bad for solar is wrong. If you check the insolation maps you will find that southern Germany is surprisingly sunny. Their cooler temperatures also help with efficiency.

Which insolation maps? I find this hard to believe. Compared to SW USA (or even the east coast), Germany's insolation is pretty bad. The subsidies are all the only thing bringing solar to Germany (or even Spain for that matter)

See: http://maps.nrel.gov/SWERA

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#36

Post by jusben1369 »

redwood wrote: post #32

Red tape is a big part of the cost in the US and a problem that needs to be solved. Every locality and state has its own requirements, inspections, licenses etc. A solar industry insider told me one of the worst solar markets in California is Palo Alto. Wealthy, green, suburban, techy: how can this be? The city runs its own utilities and makes it hard to install (apparently). Regulations need to be streamlined.

My first thought when reading this was that it was really confusing cause and effect and (deliberately?) failing to cover the alternatives to solar. So I was pleased to see the currently top rated comment here started out with:"The reason is because grid power is more expensive in Germany: $0.30/kWh compared to $0.10/kWh on average in the US. Therefore potential customers are easier to convince to use solar in Germany." Many of the issues highlighted in the US simply relate to where the US is in the curve of adoption. If Solar was more competitive with the regular grid then a) There would be more demand = lowered customer acquisition costs = lowered installation costs (vols and skills) = reduced red tape based on political clout from industry and consumers. So everything outlined in this article seems more about symptoms than causes. What we do about that can either be government regulation driven or market driven but either way it feels like a pretty big missing piece from the original article.

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#37

Post by jusben1369 »

gte910h wrote: post #33
jcampbell1 wrote: post #8

I have never understood residential solar. Seems like a gimmick. Why would I want these panels on my roof? It seems like hosting a server in your basement. It is appealing in theory, but silly in practice. If I just hosted my panels at a site where other people hosted their solar panels, you could probably install it for less than $1.00 per watt.

It turns a surface that mostly transfers heat into your attic into a surface that transfers less heat into your attic and a great deal of electricity into your house during the part of the day that requires the most air conditioning. If you live anywhere that's hot much of the year, it's a great deal, dropping your electric bill precipitously and recouping costs often in 2-4 years in that type of situation (as oppose…

Wait Atlanta? I was with you until you hit an incredibly hot city with a therefore powerful sun.

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#38

Post by wlesieutre »

ndonnellan wrote: post #35
jws wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notion that Germany is bad for solar is wrong. If you check the insolation maps you will find that southern Germany is surprisingly sunny. Their cooler temperatures also help with efficiency.

Which insolation maps? I find this hard to believe. Compared to SW USA (or even the east coast), Germany's insolation is pretty bad. The subsidies are all the only thing bringing solar to Germany (or even Spain for that matter) See: http://maps.nrel.gov/SWERA

I don't know the source of their data, but this map from BP Solar puts Germany on par with most of Alaska (and worse than anywhere else in the US)

http://www.amerescosolar.com/sites/default/files/insolation_...

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#39

Post by wlesieutre »

jcampbell1 wrote: post #8

I have never understood residential solar. Seems like a gimmick. Why would I want these panels on my roof? It seems like hosting a server in your basement. It is appealing in theory, but silly in practice. If I just hosted my panels at a site where other people hosted their solar panels, you could probably install it for less than $1.00 per watt.

This is something that's allowed for in some solar regulations, using a system called Virtual Net Metering. It works the same way as normal net metering (where power sent back into the grid runs your meter backward), except that the power output can be allocated over multiple people's electric bills. IIRC, there are community solar projects that do exactly what you describe.

http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/PUC/energy/DistGen/vnm.htm

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#40

Post by sliverstorm »

lispm wrote: post #16
quanticle wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, on the flip side, Germany has massive tax subsidies for solar power. It's a lot easier to convince someone to get solar panels installed on their roof if you can show them a tax benefit for doing so. On a broader note, I don't get why we think it's a good thing for Germany to have this much solar energy. Unlike, say, Spain, the German climate is not especially well suited to solar power. It's too far north, as a…

> underinvestment in wind estimated electricity production for Germany in 2012: * Wind: 45 Billion kwh * Solar: 28,5 Billion kWh

But isn't it better to put all your eggs in one basket?
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