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On Really Trying (2009)

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Re: On Really Trying (2009)

#31

Post by Xmd5a »

bildung wrote: post #23
noduerme wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from a family that believed strongly in what some might call "useful child abuse", but that doesn't imply any actual abuse as it would have been defined even 20 years ago, and it isn't without love. Every one of my brothers will admit that our parents loved us deeply, but that our upbringing was extremely stringent and intellectually rigorous, with seemingly unjust punishments for poor grades or for words spoken…

Empirically, the causality you state there is simply wrong, and clearly so. The psychological abuse you have suffered usually at least leads to anxious attachment, i.e. the inability to form healthy bonds with other people, as well as higher probability of social anxiety, depression and suicidality. You've just fallen victim to survivorship bias here - if you were one of the kids that got broken more severly by their…

As much as I dislike the poster you're responding to ... I think he has a point in fact. I've been running "social inquiries" on linguists who opened new perspectives in their field. It's always the same pattern of finding in their intellectual constructs the life elements that put them in tension on the affective plane.

Re: On Really Trying (2009)

#32

Post by jfsebastian »

bildung wrote: post #23
noduerme wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from a family that believed strongly in what some might call "useful child abuse", but that doesn't imply any actual abuse as it would have been defined even 20 years ago, and it isn't without love. Every one of my brothers will admit that our parents loved us deeply, but that our upbringing was extremely stringent and intellectually rigorous, with seemingly unjust punishments for poor grades or for words spoken…

Empirically, the causality you state there is simply wrong, and clearly so. The psychological abuse you have suffered usually at least leads to anxious attachment, i.e. the inability to form healthy bonds with other people, as well as higher probability of social anxiety, depression and suicidality. You've just fallen victim to survivorship bias here - if you were one of the kids that got broken more severly by their…

I’ve thought about this a lot in the past, too, because my parents didn’t exactly come from loving homes themselves; their upbringings were defined more by strictness.

I grew up the same way. There was a lot of arguing—it rarely turned physical, but they didn’t take much interest in me, either. I had to sort out many of my own issues on my own. Fortunately, I had grandparents on one side of the family who loved me dearly and made me feel like I belonged. They also always encouraged me and supported my talents.

Now I have children of my own and think about this a lot—especially since my wife’s experience was similar, yet different. We decided to do things better with our kids, and we try to put that into practice every day.

Here’s something that crossed my mind: I’ve certainly achieved a degree of success in life, partly because I had to be very independent from a young age. If I wanted something, I had to take care of it myself—at least in most cases. But I’ve come to the conclusion that while my sons might turn out to be more "normies" or conventional, the psychological toll of that kind of upbringing—the low self-esteem and the lack of pride from one’s own parents—far outweighs those benefits.

Re: On Really Trying (2009)

#33

Post by n4r9 »

noduerme wrote: post #26
n4r9 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when you do work hard and you are satisfied with yourself Ime if you constantly need to prove yourself then you rarely feel this; when you do, the feeling is ephemeral. > achieving something to make your dead parents happy is better than achieving nothing at all This feels circular. It assumes a value judgement about achievement which stems from your upbringing.

We are taught that achievement means value. Circularly, we value ourselves for achievements and we inculcate this in our children. It is a value judgment . It's one that not everyone shares. It's surprising to me that a majority of people find it to be a controversial. I think what's actually going on here in this thread is that people think any value judgment must be a bad thing. Right?

I'm not saying that any value judgement is a bad thing. (Although such a statement would be amusingly ironic). I'm saying that you're viewing your upbringing strictly through the lens it handed you.

As far as I can make out, your argument goes like this:

Strict parenting is good because it produces high achievers. I think achievement is good because I was conditioned to think it was good. I was conditioned to think it was good as a result of strict parenting.

Effectively: strict parenting is good because I was strictly parented.

Re: On Really Trying (2009)

#34

Post by noduerme »

bildung wrote: post #23
noduerme wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from a family that believed strongly in what some might call "useful child abuse", but that doesn't imply any actual abuse as it would have been defined even 20 years ago, and it isn't without love. Every one of my brothers will admit that our parents loved us deeply, but that our upbringing was extremely stringent and intellectually rigorous, with seemingly unjust punishments for poor grades or for words spoken…

Empirically, the causality you state there is simply wrong, and clearly so. The psychological abuse you have suffered usually at least leads to anxious attachment, i.e. the inability to form healthy bonds with other people, as well as higher probability of social anxiety, depression and suicidality. You've just fallen victim to survivorship bias here - if you were one of the kids that got broken more severly by their…

Maybe I'm speaking from "survivor bias", but I'm bit offended by your clinically framed attempt to pathologize my upbringing here.

I never said that we weren't loved or that basic affection was withheld.

We were expected to do beyond what we thought was our best, or else we would be disappointments to our parents. Would they still love us? Sure. Kick us out...? Not unless our responses involved gross insubordination. But we were called to explain ourselves as one would in a court of law.

What was at stake, and this is what I think you may misapprehend, was not parental love. It was parental respect.

In order for that to function, you actually have to love them and know that they love you. Otherwise you wouldn't give a shit whether they respected you.

Which is why withdrawing respect at times is not abuse, it's teaching someone how to conduct themselves.

Re: On Really Trying (2009)

#35

Post by noduerme »

b3lvedere wrote: post #27
noduerme wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? When I was a teenager I really thought their demands were unfair. When I was a dropout and a taxi driver in my 20s, I blamed my parents. When I became a millionaire based on finding something I loved and doing it very well, even though they disapproved and didn't support me in it, I finally was able to thank them for giving me the intellectual tools to do that for myself. And interestingly, unexpectedly, they fi…

Money aside, would you consider yourself being happy?

Dude or lady, I was happiest when I was writing stories behind the wheel of a taxi, eating beans and rice every night and sleeping in the back seat... I'd almost be happier to lose everything I own and go back to that, because owning shit is an albatross, and what makes me happy is figuring things out from scratch and doing it on my own terms. The one thing that no one can take away from me is the love of proving myself and making things.

I guess I'm happy. I can't complain. I need more challenges.

Re: On Really Trying (2009)

#36

Post by [deleted] »

noduerme wrote: post #29
akho wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

children from families flying Concorde grow up to be doctors and lawyers, news at 11

That's not really the news. Guy grew up in Russia with no indoor plumbing, forced to drop out of school at 12, has 7 brothers and sisters killed in a genocide, flees conscription at 15, broke on a train to Holland then a boat to Argentina where he speaks no Spanish, ends up in America at 21 and becomes a Spanish translator, works as a cloth cutter and a bartender, buys a farm on a patch of arid desert, sends his kid…

[deleted]

Re: On Really Trying (2009)

#37

Post by z3t4 »

When I was a child I trained Athletics. In a training session the older kids pranked us or whatever, they measured our long jump and everyone jumped crazy lenghts. We could not believe it! I jumped one meter over my personal best. But they assured us, it was correct. As a naive and autistic kid I didn't question it, it's now as an adult I think back and analyze (i have good memory) it must have been the case... Anyway two days later there was a meet and I first jumped my ordinary length, but I now believed I could jump longer, I just needed to use more force, so I did, a bit longer, added even more force and speed, until I got the same result as the training session two days prior.

Re: On Really Trying (2009)

#38

Post by deadlast2 »

noduerme wrote: post #9
zshn wrote: post #8

Strangely reading about high achievers having had a difficult childhood and how it might have actually "enabled" them to achieve what they did, is soothing in a way. It's nice to think of your own scars as a thing that helps you sometimes instead of only a burden.

I'm from a family that believed strongly in what some might call "useful child abuse", but that doesn't imply any actual abuse as it would have been defined even 20 years ago, and it isn't without love. Every one of my brothers will admit that our parents loved us deeply, but that our upbringing was extremely stringent and intellectually rigorous, with seemingly unjust punishments for poor grades or for words spoken…

I don't think it's going to make a difference over a generation or two. If it did we'd have a society of high achievers and no achievers. Rags to riches and back in X generations. The people doing drugs and falling out with society may themselves be high achievers too Drugs drugs casts a wide net. You'll get older and unwanted and stupid like the rest of us. Then you'll wake up. Hopefully when you do you're not on your own.

Re: On Really Trying (2009)

#39

Post by imtringued »

noduerme wrote: post #9
zshn wrote: post #8

Strangely reading about high achievers having had a difficult childhood and how it might have actually "enabled" them to achieve what they did, is soothing in a way. It's nice to think of your own scars as a thing that helps you sometimes instead of only a burden.

I'm from a family that believed strongly in what some might call "useful child abuse", but that doesn't imply any actual abuse as it would have been defined even 20 years ago, and it isn't without love. Every one of my brothers will admit that our parents loved us deeply, but that our upbringing was extremely stringent and intellectually rigorous, with seemingly unjust punishments for poor grades or for words spoken…

You expect to be upvoted for an obvious troll post?

It's Poe's Law in action. We can't tell if you're unhinged enough to post that or you're imitating people who would post that to make fun of them.

Re: On Really Trying (2009)

#40

Post by Fraterkes »

noduerme wrote: post #9
zshn wrote: post #8

Strangely reading about high achievers having had a difficult childhood and how it might have actually "enabled" them to achieve what they did, is soothing in a way. It's nice to think of your own scars as a thing that helps you sometimes instead of only a burden.

I'm from a family that believed strongly in what some might call "useful child abuse", but that doesn't imply any actual abuse as it would have been defined even 20 years ago, and it isn't without love. Every one of my brothers will admit that our parents loved us deeply, but that our upbringing was extremely stringent and intellectually rigorous, with seemingly unjust punishments for poor grades or for words spoken…

I don’t know if it’s the fault of your parents’ parenting style, but there’s a kind of shortsighted meanness in this comment that has been the source of vast amounts of human suffering throughout history.
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