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The Sex Tape Litmus Test

laverick.org

31–40 of 138 posts

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nothing said about distributing it, although I see your point on the creation of it. But I'm not sure I'd be able to make that distinction about anything else valuable - "well, company x, you might 'own' this, but I created it and can do whatever I want with it". They want the benefits without any risks - ain't gonna happen. Well... I say that, but I think everyone might have their price. I've got mine, and yes, sure…

Employment contracts are almost always written to supply as many benefits to the employer and mitigate as many risks as possible. The worst case scenario for them is that they find out that certain clauses are not enforceable. In reality I imagine it is often known that some may be unenforceable but they are added anyway on the basis that the employee doesn't know this.

In GA the constitution USED to be written such that unenforceable contracts, especially unenforceable employment contracts, were void in their entirety.

They sadly passed an amendment to remove that :O(

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's odd to me is that in many cases people who purport to be "pro free market" are also anti-union. As far as I can see, unions are the free market.

I've thought that too. The difference seems to be that in general, an entire workforce in a company is either 'union' or 'non-union'. In places I've worked in that had unions, you didn't have a choice as to whether you wanted to join or not - you want the job, you join the union. At the macro-level, perhaps 'the market' for labor has said "union", but the choice is not there for the individual to join or not. I took…

The concept you're talking about is the so-called "right-to-work law" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law). The problem seems to be exactly what jiggy mentions: it's much cheaper not to join the union, and you still enjoy at least some of the benefits of the collective bargaining. The reality seems to be that right-to-work states have weaker unions, lower pay, and lousier benefits than non-right-to-work states. Whether this is directly related to right-to-work laws or not is not entirely clear, but there's no evidence to suggest that right-to-work actually makes unions stronger or better for their members.

In terms of "making the union managers work for their jobs," is that really a problem right now? I haven't often heard arguments suggesting unions are just collecting dues and doing nothing. Generally the only anti-union argument I've heard is that unions are too powerful and their members have overly generous compensation.

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's odd to me is that in many cases people who purport to be "pro free market" are also anti-union. As far as I can see, unions are the free market.

While it's not a position I hold myself, I imagine such people would argue that unions are not the free market because of the legal protections and privileges they enjoy. I'm no expert, but I know that in at least some jurisdictions a union-endorsed strike carries protections against worker dismissal.

It's odd for you to point out one of the legal protections unions have without also pointing out the things they are prohibited from doing, such as sympathy strikes, mass picketing, and (in some states) the ability to require a union shop.

And the law gives company owners protection against personal liability, and taxes companies different from personal income, while it also prohibits employers from having an unsafe workplace, child labor, and practicing various types of discrimination.

We are far from a free market. I agree with the earlier poster - I think a free market enthusiast should also want unions.

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, you can quit and work somewhere else. As if people always have that luxury. What if most companies in your field (e.g computer games) follow similar practices? "Go work at another field"? Why fell prey and bow down, looking for work elsewhere, and not try to change the system instead? If a company didn't allow black or gay employees would that be acceptable, and people be told to just "work somewhere else"? I…

Not every company in your field is going to have contracts like that, I can pretty much guarantee that if you are willing to work for a smaller company you can negotiate something. And I did quit my job because we were bought by a larger company with a contract I didn't like just this summer. It's quite possible I'd be making more money if I hadn't restricted myself in this way, but, well, integrity is worth somethin…

I believe the point was that programming is a seller's market, so the ease with which someone like you may be able to switch jobs doesn't necessarily translate to other industries.

But even for programming, who says there's always another company doing the same work in your area that's hiring? Unemployment may be low for us, and telecommuting may be a valid option for many, but it seems easy to suggest there are practically infinite possibilities for programmers when the list can actually be pretty small depending on your geographic location, resume/skill set, and a variety of other personal factors.

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#35
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it's not a position I hold myself, I imagine such people would argue that unions are not the free market because of the legal protections and privileges they enjoy. I'm no expert, but I know that in at least some jurisdictions a union-endorsed strike carries protections against worker dismissal.

It's odd for you to point out one of the legal protections unions have without also pointing out the things they are prohibited from doing, such as sympathy strikes, mass picketing, and (in some states) the ability to require a union shop. And the law gives company owners protection against personal liability, and taxes companies different from personal income, while it also prohibits employers from having an unsafe…

There's also a fair number of union workers who are not allowed to strike at all: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action#In_the_United_Sta....

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#36
IANAL, but I have heard of something called the Reasonable Person Standard. Since the US is based on Common Law, I believe this standard could be used if this were really tested in court:

``The reasonable person (historically reasonable man) is one of many tools for explaining the law to a jury.[1] The "reasonable person" is an emergent concept of common law.[2] While there is (loose) consensus in black letter law, there is no universally accepted, technical definition. As a legal fiction,[2] the "reasonable person" is not an average person or a typical person. Instead, the "reasonable person" is a composite of a relevant community's judgment as to how a typical member of said community should behave in situations that might pose a threat of harm (through action or inaction) to the public.[3] The standard also holds that each person owes a duty to behave as a reasonable person would under the same or similar circumstances.[4][5] While the specific circumstances of each case will require varying kinds of conduct and degrees of care, the reasonable person standard undergoes no variation itself.[6][7] The "reasonable person" construct can be found applied in many areas of the law. The standard performs a crucial role in determining negligence in both criminal law—that is, criminal negligence—and tort law. The standard also has a presence in contract law, though its use there is substantially different.[8] It is used to determine contractual intent, or if a breach of the standard of care has occurred, provided a duty of care can be proven. The intent of a party can be determined by examining the understanding of a reasonable person, after consideration is given to all relevant circumstances of the case including the negotiations, any practices the parties have established between themselves, usages and any subsequent conduct of the parties.[9]"

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#37
post #5

I think that any funny clauses in the contracts should be abolished and the worker/employer relations should only be regulated by law. This makes me pro-regulation and anti-market, but unfortunately I see exactly zero ways in which market can make contracts better. What are you expected to do in this situation - quit?

Negotiate for the removal of these clauses from your contract and don't sign it if they won't remove them. Sometimes this may mean passing on a job but if everyone did this then employers wouldn't try to get away with it.

In this case Sony is trying to change the agreement post employment. I wish the OP had said what HR said about ownwership of the sex tape, I really would have liked to use that example with the Google lawyers to see where they came down on it.

I don't doubt that future contracts will say "We reserve the right to update this in the future as conditions change in order to remain compliant with applicable regulations and laws and in order to protect the interests of the company."

Once you sign that, even with a permissive clause, they come back later than blam! Change it and you've pre-agreed to their changes which can now be much more restrictive.

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#38
post #6

I think that any funny clauses in the contracts should be abolished and the worker/employer relations should only be regulated by law. This makes me pro-regulation and anti-market, but unfortunately I see exactly zero ways in which market can make contracts better. What are you expected to do in this situation - quit?

Yes, you can quit and work somewhere else. Also you can read about what Sony does on Hacker News and decide not to apply there for a job in the first place. I really hope you are not actually against customized employment contracts- there are a lot of cases where they can be useful. What might be better is prohibiting instances of terms you find offensive. For example, California's moonlighting law, which effectively…

I think for many people it's going to be hard to fulfill the following:

> ... except for those inventions that either: (1) relate at the time of conception or reduction to practice of the invention to the employer’s business, or actual or demonstrably anticipated research or development of the employer ...

As a programmer, there's not a lot I can do that is going to be considered wholly unrelated to what I'm employed for... at least it would be murky enough that the employer would have a good court case. This is infinitely more so for anyone working with Google, Apple, or any other company that has got their fingers in everything.

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#39
post #6

I think that any funny clauses in the contracts should be abolished and the worker/employer relations should only be regulated by law. This makes me pro-regulation and anti-market, but unfortunately I see exactly zero ways in which market can make contracts better. What are you expected to do in this situation - quit?

Yes, you can quit and work somewhere else. Also you can read about what Sony does on Hacker News and decide not to apply there for a job in the first place. I really hope you are not actually against customized employment contracts- there are a lot of cases where they can be useful. What might be better is prohibiting instances of terms you find offensive. For example, California's moonlighting law, which effectively…

"Yes, you can quit and work somewhere else"

How exactly will it help when all employers adopt stupid and evil clauses in their contracts? Because that's what they do. Legal documents ("best practices") seem to circulate between companies, growing more bulk with each round. There's no place in this process for the consideration of employees' wishes. There can't be because legal department is famously isolated from the rest of the company and only cares about covering their own ass. They don't care about productivity. They don't care about happiness. They only care about having all bases covered. So I don't see why they won't grab every right from you that they can without violating the law.

If the law is where they stop, then there should be the law and nothing else. There's no reason for all those contracts-writing people to be employed.

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#40
post #5

I think that any funny clauses in the contracts should be abolished and the worker/employer relations should only be regulated by law. This makes me pro-regulation and anti-market, but unfortunately I see exactly zero ways in which market can make contracts better. What are you expected to do in this situation - quit?

Negotiate for the removal of these clauses from your contract and don't sign it if they won't remove them. Sometimes this may mean passing on a job but if everyone did this then employers wouldn't try to get away with it.

In smaller companies you can sometimes rewrite the contract. I've done this, specifically to remove this clause.
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