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The Hobbit, the Uncanny Valley, and what it means for 3D

cianclarke.com

31–40 of 62 posts

Re: The Hobbit, the Uncanny Valley, and what it means for 3D

#31
post #21

Can we play 48fps on our computers? I mean: is there a common video format supporting 48fps and a common media player (eg VLC) able to play at 48fps? If so, the following movie would be great: make several types of animations / sequences (both filmed and 3D and, if possible, a mix of both) but... On the left part of the movie you show it at 48fps while on the right part of the movie you show only, say, even frames (h…

The "even frames" method of comparison you describe is flawed. Motion blur is very important to our perception of motion, and is the reason that motion at 24fps can look great on exposed film (lots of blur) and terrible in video games (no blur). When you skip half of the frames you have thrown out motion blur information that could have been present had the lower-rate source been created at that rate in the first pla…

Yeah, the correct way to do this would be to use two cameras set up facing a mirror, or something similar. One camera records at 24fps, one at 48fps.

Re: The Hobbit, the Uncanny Valley, and what it means for 3D

#32

For those interested in an in-depth look at 48 fps in The Hobbit from an artistic viewpoint, here are two good blog posts discussing its effect on filmmaking: http://www.theverge.com/2012/12/18/3780274/48-fps-how-we-acc... http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2012/12/19/the-hobbit-an-unex... I've read the first article so far, which suggests that solving problems with 48 fps present in The Hobbit is simply a matter of modi…

There are so many ludicrous arguments in The Verge article.

> For some [filmmakers], HFR will be a potential new tool in their arsenal for telling certain types of stories in a new and exciting way, while others will be reminded of why the 2D format at 24 fps has stood the test of time for so long.

Just like dial-up for Internet and horses for transportation stood the test of time for so long. This is such an unabashed argument that "it should stay this way because it has been this at for so long" that I feel sympathetic embarrassment upon reading it.

The author's failure to be immersed is clearly due to his a priori insistence that 24 FPS is the way movie should be shot and projected. He says that himself. But there is more:

> In the opening hour of The Hobbit shown in 3D HFR – I don’t recall hearing a single sigh, or laugh. Not one. When I went to see the exact same seen with an audience of the same size on a 2D projection – I heard regular chuckles and laughter… why?

Here's why: because there are really high odds that of all the people across the world that watched the movie in both formats, at least one person would experience this. Why did Bob win the lottery? Is it because he's good at guessing lottery numbers, or is it because the odds were high that someone would win the lottery, and we chose Bob for analysis after learning that he won? In case anyone wants a counter-anecdote, I watched The Hobbit in both formats and there was a lot of laughter in both theaters. I don't have any real evidence, but I suspect most showings in all formats had considerable laughter.

> It’s like being on a film set in person: all of the magic is lost. You get to see behind the curtain and you’re no longer under the spell…

I think most critics and movie buffs are well aware that "the magic" comes from the viewer's deliberate choice to suspend disbelief. If this weren't the case, then filmmakers themselves would be unable to enjoy a film, since they would fully understand most aspects of how the film was produced. Again, this just reaffirms the author's own admission that he will only choose to be immersed if a film is projected in 24 FPS.

> The makeup wasn’t as terrible as some people say, and most of the VFX were stunning but not all. When I saw them in 2D however – it was almost like seeing another film. My attention wasn’t drawn to them … As I was focusing on central action. That challenges the "Suspension of Disbelief" theory that we all need to believe what we are seeing on screen and to get lost in it…

Oh boy. The author seems unaware that all or nearly all modern theory about suspension of disbelief places most of the responsibility on the viewer, not the artist. No artist can forcefully make you forget or ignore the fact that you're sitting down in a dark room with a bunch of other people.

I suppose I cannot dispute the author's claims about experiencing physical pain from the 3D. Perhaps there truly is some sort variation in people's visual systems that causes this. Other than the slight physical discomfort from wearing 3D glasses over my corrective glasses, all I can say is I haven't experienced that. If this were his central criticism, then it would be valid, although depending on the rate of occurrence of this medical condition it may or may not be reasonable to expect a blockbuster filmmaker to accommodate those who suffer from it.

Re: The Hobbit, the Uncanny Valley, and what it means for 3D

#33
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HFR is nothing new. The problem is it sucks. It gives everything that is not a fast-action scene a cheap soap opera/reality show look.

Presumably that's only the case if you choose to associate higher frame rates with television, since television is traditionally shown at higher frame rates. But this association is problematic. It's analogous to resisting faster Internet speeds because you didn't enjoy college and you associate fast Internet with being in college since your college used to be the only place where you had fast Internet.

Your analogy breaks in that we hate the "soap opera" look EVEN in soap operas and even if we happen to like soap operas (which I occasionally do).

It's not that we associate the HFR look with a bad thing and thus we think it's bad "by association".

It's that we think the HFR look is bad in itself.

Re: The Hobbit, the Uncanny Valley, and what it means for 3D

#34
post #26
post #23

There's no uncanny valley here. I just got back from seeing the movie an hour ago, so I'm speaking from very fresh perspective. I saw it in 3D at 48fps. Both completely killed the movie. In the very opening scene where Bilbo is picking up the book, it looked too fast. It was the opposite of "smooth". I don't care about the technical arguments about how more frames per second is smoother. It doesn't look right subject…

I agree that there is no uncanny valley, but I believe that critics' complaints (and perhaps your own) stem not from independent comparisons of both 24 and 48 FPS to some ideal format, but rather from an assumption that 24 FPS is the ideal form. If you believe that the purpose of a film format is simply to convey moving images to the viewer with as much fidelity and control as possible, as I do, then 48 FPS is object…

I'm not a purist trying to make the argument that 24fps is the best thing since cheese for movies. Thats like the folks that say vinyl offers better sound than digital. I'm not an audiofile so I never noticed.

About a week ago I was at the Microsoft campus in Redmond and had a chance to watch an action scene from the last Batman movie in one of their living room studios. The TV was pretty new and was showing the movie in interpolation mode or something. Subjectively, it looked like the Hobbit did. It didn't seem natural and kept pulling me out of enjoying the film. This comes with the comparison that I saw the same Batman movie in the theater this year and it looked much better at the slower frame rate.

I believe the optimal goal for fps is to mimic exactly what the human brain perceives with vision. Movies and/or video games should eventually seem like you're a spectator or looking through a window.

I just read through this page and it provides some good background, http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htm.

Basically, I think what was lacking in the Hobbit was a significant amount of motion blur. That's what we get naturally at a lower frame rate like 24fps. Simply pumping up the fps to 48 without adjusting for motion blur is what makes it feel weird. It definitely provides more visual detail, but that isn't optimal for the viewing experience.

I think an interesting experiment to do in the next few months will be to take the 48fps non-3D version of the Hobbit and add motion blur in certain test scenes while maintaining the higher frame rate. I hypothesize this will let us see more detail and make the images richer while appearing more natural to the brain.

Re: The Hobbit, the Uncanny Valley, and what it means for 3D

#35
post #26
post #23

There's no uncanny valley here. I just got back from seeing the movie an hour ago, so I'm speaking from very fresh perspective. I saw it in 3D at 48fps. Both completely killed the movie. In the very opening scene where Bilbo is picking up the book, it looked too fast. It was the opposite of "smooth". I don't care about the technical arguments about how more frames per second is smoother. It doesn't look right subject…

I agree that there is no uncanny valley, but I believe that critics' complaints (and perhaps your own) stem not from independent comparisons of both 24 and 48 FPS to some ideal format, but rather from an assumption that 24 FPS is the ideal form. If you believe that the purpose of a film format is simply to convey moving images to the viewer with as much fidelity and control as possible, as I do, then 48 FPS is object…

>If you believe that the purpose of a film format is simply to convey moving images to the viewer with as much fidelity and control as possible, as I do, then 48 FPS is objectively better

As used in the current film, 48FPS diminishes selectivity of detail, one of the most important attributes of any artform. In this film it is ALL detail, ALL the time.

For an analogy, think of it in literary terms: 48FPS is akin to a writer endlessly pouring over every minute detail of his scene, at the expense of plot, characterization, theme, etc. In literature, that might become a hallmark of style (Dickens), but even so, when the plot needs to move, one dials down the descriptiveness. In film, we're swept along at the movie's pace, and there isn't always time to process the blanket intensity of detail at 48 FPS. It can easily draw our attention to non-essential parts of the shot, and overwhelm visual attention at the expense of auditory story-tracking.

FWIW, I saw the film in 48 FPS 3D, and I truly tried to be as open minded and objective about what I was viewing, trying to approach the content, style, and technology on its own terms. (I find this is often the way to get the most enjoyable experience out of a movie.) There were moments when I found the level of detail breathtaking. Unfortunately, there were more where I found it to be distracting, and the motion strangely awkward. For the most part, I did appreciate the lack of motion blur on panning shots.

Perhaps what is needed is a new method of dialing the detail up or down within the shot when using HFR, beyond the current means of focus, depth of field, and lighting. Like a painter selectively using detailed rendering techniques on different faces within a scene, filmmakers shooting at 48 FPS could then more easily direct their audience's glance and attention according to the aims of the narrative.

But as in any art, there's no easy answer here. It's always going to be about tradeoffs.

Re: The Hobbit, the Uncanny Valley, and what it means for 3D

#36
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably that's only the case if you choose to associate higher frame rates with television, since television is traditionally shown at higher frame rates. But this association is problematic. It's analogous to resisting faster Internet speeds because you didn't enjoy college and you associate fast Internet with being in college since your college used to be the only place where you had fast Internet.

Your analogy breaks in that we hate the "soap opera" look EVEN in soap operas and even if we happen to like soap operas (which I occasionally do). It's not that we associate the HFR look with a bad thing and thus we think it's bad "by association". It's that we think the HFR look is bad in itself.

I don't universally hate soap operas or the soap opera look, and I do think the association made by most people is simply that soap operas tend to be low budget while also being shown at 60 Hz. I believe the fundamental reason for bad-looking soap operas is the low budgets. They are 60 Hz because that's just how television has worked for a very long time.

Re: The Hobbit, the Uncanny Valley, and what it means for 3D

#37

I actually saw The Hobbit thrice. In IMAX 3D, "Real-3D", and HFR 3D. I do have to say that you can tell the difference when watching in HFR. It felt as if the video was fluid or even slightly fast forward. Like you are moving a bit faster than you should be. Strange, but clearly the future of motion picture.

HFR is nothing new. The problem is it sucks. It gives everything that is not a fast-action scene a cheap soap opera/reality show look.

HFR is just a messenger. It's no fault of HFR if filmmakers don't know yet how to make it "cinematic". HFR is the future, it must be - and filmmakers WILL learn how to use it.

Re: The Hobbit, the Uncanny Valley, and what it means for 3D

#38
post #26
post #23

There's no uncanny valley here. I just got back from seeing the movie an hour ago, so I'm speaking from very fresh perspective. I saw it in 3D at 48fps. Both completely killed the movie. In the very opening scene where Bilbo is picking up the book, it looked too fast. It was the opposite of "smooth". I don't care about the technical arguments about how more frames per second is smoother. It doesn't look right subject…

I agree that there is no uncanny valley, but I believe that critics' complaints (and perhaps your own) stem not from independent comparisons of both 24 and 48 FPS to some ideal format, but rather from an assumption that 24 FPS is the ideal form. If you believe that the purpose of a film format is simply to convey moving images to the viewer with as much fidelity and control as possible, as I do, then 48 FPS is object…

>The other opinion, which is that 24 FPS has some inherent artistic merit that makes it the ideal format for cinema, is bizarre and incomprehensible to me

Well, it depends. For one, it coincides better with the ~1/25 rate of which a retina persists an afterimage, which might give it a better perceptual look over a higher frame rate.

And perhaps it's not the "as much fidelity" part that is asked of the film medium, but the illusion of a different world, which better fidelity would destroy.

>and that type of argument could be (and probably was) used to argue against audio ("talkies"), color, surround sound, digital color correction, etc.

Well, from a purely artistic perspective, the argument is not incomprehensible at all, even against audio, color, surround sound and such, depending on the prevailing theory of art.

And, purely empirically, I'd go on to say that the more technologically advanced a movie, the worse film it is. But I come from a European/French perspective on the art of cinema, and I wouldn't consider Avatar or LoTR as a "good" film at all.

Re: The Hobbit, the Uncanny Valley, and what it means for 3D

#39
post #26
post #23

There's no uncanny valley here. I just got back from seeing the movie an hour ago, so I'm speaking from very fresh perspective. I saw it in 3D at 48fps. Both completely killed the movie. In the very opening scene where Bilbo is picking up the book, it looked too fast. It was the opposite of "smooth". I don't care about the technical arguments about how more frames per second is smoother. It doesn't look right subject…

I agree that there is no uncanny valley, but I believe that critics' complaints (and perhaps your own) stem not from independent comparisons of both 24 and 48 FPS to some ideal format, but rather from an assumption that 24 FPS is the ideal form. If you believe that the purpose of a film format is simply to convey moving images to the viewer with as much fidelity and control as possible, as I do, then 48 FPS is object…

>and that type of argument could be (and probably was) used to argue against audio ("talkies"), color, surround sound, digital color correction, etc.

This is like a reverse slippery slope argument. I have not seen one quote, newspaper article, book excerpt, and so on that would back up the claim that there was widespread opposition to audio or color.

Re: The Hobbit, the Uncanny Valley, and what it means for 3D

#40
post #32

For those interested in an in-depth look at 48 fps in The Hobbit from an artistic viewpoint, here are two good blog posts discussing its effect on filmmaking: http://www.theverge.com/2012/12/18/3780274/48-fps-how-we-acc... http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2012/12/19/the-hobbit-an-unex... I've read the first article so far, which suggests that solving problems with 48 fps present in The Hobbit is simply a matter of modi…

There are so many ludicrous arguments in The Verge article. > For some [filmmakers], HFR will be a potential new tool in their arsenal for telling certain types of stories in a new and exciting way, while others will be reminded of why the 2D format at 24 fps has stood the test of time for so long. Just like dial-up for Internet and horses for transportation stood the test of time for so long. This is such an unabash…

I think watching an HFR feels like watching a play. But I'm not. I'm watching a movie.

I cannot imagine watching a non-live play on a screen and feel at all connected to the characters or the narrative.

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