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University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

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Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#31

Post by Jtsummers »

speak_plainly wrote: post #26
nemomarx wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pass fail dynamic won't increase anxiety if you tell everyone to not fail students, though.

I would have anxiety if I was a first year student who wanted to transfer out to another school or program and not know if my 'pass' would be sufficient to get prior recognition of learning or advanced standing.

The resolution to this anxiety, like for all transfer students, is to contact the academic advisors at your next institution and work with them. That's what I did, I had taken a break to work during college and when I returned it was to a new institution. I sat down with one of the advisors and worked out what transferred, what didn't, and what paperwork was needed so I didn't have to take 1st year courses that I already knew but didn't have a clear correspondence to past academics. For instance, linear algebra was mostly covered in my calculus 2 course previously, but was a separate required course at that institution. The advisor discussed it with me (he was a math professor, almost all the advisors were professors) and was satisfied I knew it well enough, I just had to take a different math course to get sufficient math credits but it was a substitution.

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#32

Post by vjulian »

estearum wrote: post #21
joezydeco wrote: post #15

When you force high school kids to work days that are significantly longer than a normal adult to achieve a good GPA and get into a good college, you can expect that they are going to throttle back once they're away from home with way more free time than is normal. From my kid's experience: she was up at 6:30am, in AP classes by 7:30am (three more to go during the day). Classes were done by 3:00, then sports practice…

I wouldn't blame her but anyone who has to check out should just fail. This is about gunning for the elite/upper echelons of society. Doing that requires working like a dog not just for 2 years of high school and 4 years of college, but for likely several decades after. It's totally fine if not everyone can do it and that more people try than actually achieve it. It would be surprising if those weren't true, and engi…

Working like a dog like this is necessary if you’re gunning for the elite / upper echelon of society, yes. If you’re already in that echelon of society, it’s not necessary.

Thank goodness I didn’t need to work so hard, but I can acknowledge what a shitty system it is.

Help me understand why these children or their parents are gunning in this manner and working like dogs in this manner, to join into and propagate such a shitty system?

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#33

Post by consensus1 »

estearum wrote: post #21
joezydeco wrote: post #15

When you force high school kids to work days that are significantly longer than a normal adult to achieve a good GPA and get into a good college, you can expect that they are going to throttle back once they're away from home with way more free time than is normal. From my kid's experience: she was up at 6:30am, in AP classes by 7:30am (three more to go during the day). Classes were done by 3:00, then sports practice…

I wouldn't blame her but anyone who has to check out should just fail. This is about gunning for the elite/upper echelons of society. Doing that requires working like a dog not just for 2 years of high school and 4 years of college, but for likely several decades after. It's totally fine if not everyone can do it and that more people try than actually achieve it. It would be surprising if those weren't true, and engi…

Do we really want the upper echelons of society to be made up of neurotic workaholics? Do we really want universities to be gate keepers here at all?

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#34

Post by alistairSH »

tptacek wrote: post #17

Having put two kids through college now: this makes sense. First semester grades are a shitshow anyways, and aren't especially predictive. The first semester at an R1 is utterly unlike any ordinary high school experience and a lot of what you're measuring is just kids getting their sea legs. What's the point? If it's causing drama, just get rid of it.

Maybe. Maybe not. In my case, that first semester of near-failing grades was the kick in the pants I needed to start exerting myself. I entered college assuming it was just as easy as high school. It wasn't. Not even close. And a semester of pass/fail wouldn't have taught me that lesson because I did pass, just barely.

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#35

Post by alephnerd »

joezydeco wrote: post #15

When you force high school kids to work days that are significantly longer than a normal adult to achieve a good GPA and get into a good college, you can expect that they are going to throttle back once they're away from home with way more free time than is normal. From my kid's experience: she was up at 6:30am, in AP classes by 7:30am (three more to go during the day). Classes were done by 3:00, then sports practice…

^^^ This. 100% This.

This kind of applicant is now treated as table stakes for programs like UMich, and acceptance rates for impacted majors like CS in top programs have dropped to single digits.

It is ridiculously competitive to get into top programs now. I got into an Ivy in the late 2000s to early 2010s. With my stats from back then (13 APs all 4s and 5s, a 4.5+ GPA, varsity wrestling, JV XCountry, NHS, CSF, USAPHO, USAMO, Policy and LD debate, a 2200+ SAT, 35 ACT, 8 SAT Subject test), I would have been lucky to get into CS@UC Davis today and I absolutely wouldn't have gotten into my alma mater.

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#36

Post by tptacek »

alistairSH wrote: post #34
tptacek wrote: post #17

Having put two kids through college now: this makes sense. First semester grades are a shitshow anyways, and aren't especially predictive. The first semester at an R1 is utterly unlike any ordinary high school experience and a lot of what you're measuring is just kids getting their sea legs. What's the point? If it's causing drama, just get rid of it.

Maybe. Maybe not. In my case, that first semester of near-failing grades was the kick in the pants I needed to start exerting myself. I entered college assuming it was just as easy as high school. It wasn't. Not even close. And a semester of pass/fail wouldn't have taught me that lesson because I did pass, just barely.

So issue the grades but don't record them in the GPA.

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#37

Post by joezydeco »

estearum wrote: post #21
joezydeco wrote: post #15

When you force high school kids to work days that are significantly longer than a normal adult to achieve a good GPA and get into a good college, you can expect that they are going to throttle back once they're away from home with way more free time than is normal. From my kid's experience: she was up at 6:30am, in AP classes by 7:30am (three more to go during the day). Classes were done by 3:00, then sports practice…

I wouldn't blame her but anyone who has to check out should just fail. This is about gunning for the elite/upper echelons of society. Doing that requires working like a dog not just for 2 years of high school and 4 years of college, but for likely several decades after. It's totally fine if not everyone can do it and that more people try than actually achieve it. It would be surprising if those weren't true, and engi…

Let me tell you about the scam of 'honors' classes in today's high schools. They not doing anything more introspective or challenging. It's the same classwork thrown at them faster and without as much teaching support. Just more to grind out. But when you don't understand something?

You're smart, you'll figure it out.

In return you get inflated GPAs that get you into better colleges. But if you can't figure it out on the first try? More stress.

Interestingly, a lot of colleges now ignore the 'honors' weighted GPA and ask to see the unweighted score. If you have a teen entering high school, skip the honors track and help them do better in the normal track version of the class. See if your school offers dual-credit with a local community college or state university. Those transfer credits are WAY more valuable now (and cheaper!) than an AP score, with a lot less test stress.

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#38

Post by jerlam »

dtj1123 wrote: post #16
AngryData wrote: post #4

It sounds okay at first glance, but how many people are going to get saddled with an extra semester of debt now because they didn't figure out they weren't suite/ready for college yet but were just passed along through the first semester anyways?

Completely agree. My first semester of university was straight up hazing, which at the time felt like crap. The consequence though, was that every single person who stayed on the course actually cared about being there. Staying motivated for the next three and a half years was made so much easier because the first six months were so difficult.

People called them "weeder" classes in my university.

But it's better earlier rather than later. The consequences aren't severe and you can change majors, lessen your course load, or stop those volunteer opportunities. That's part of learning how to be an adult.

I knew a few people my freshmen year that were put on academic probation. They turned out all right after making some drastic changes. Others simply disappeared during the break.

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#39

Post by mae3x »

joezydeco wrote: post #15

When you force high school kids to work days that are significantly longer than a normal adult to achieve a good GPA and get into a good college, you can expect that they are going to throttle back once they're away from home with way more free time than is normal. From my kid's experience: she was up at 6:30am, in AP classes by 7:30am (three more to go during the day). Classes were done by 3:00, then sports practice…

This schedule is no different than my schedule from 30 years ago and I don't consider it problematic at all. You frame it as 15+ hour days by including all aspects of their day as "work" but no normal adult includes their workout time and their social engagements as part of their work day. Time spent in sports is fun, not work. If it is work, then quit. Time spent in gym class and lunch is not work. Remove all that bloat from your framing and it is a very reasonable workload.

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#40

Post by samiwami »

ilc wrote: post #13

To those saying this is soft: https://registrar.mit.edu/classes-grades-evaluations/grades/... If you want to say MIT is soft. Feel free.

Pass/No Record is one of MITs best ideas for undergrads (that and S^3).

It lets you actually focus on getting acclimated and into the groove without being worried about the difference between an A and a B.

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