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Web Discussions: Flat by Design

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Re: Web Discussions: Flat by Design

#31
post #18
post #2

I very often will find a post on HN where the conversation forked in numerous unrelated directions: one thread taking about the politics, one talking about the economics, one talking about the font used on the website, and another angry that the post got enough upvotes to be on the front page in the first place. I consider it of immense value that I can skip most of the content I am not interested, and concentrate on…

If I could add anything to HN, it would be branch collapsing. And of course I can do that indirectly, via a bookmarklet of Greasemonkey. Branch collapsing makes most of the navigation you describe easier.

I like the way reddit makes discussions more manageable, I often get frustrated with multiple page discussions in Hacker News that aren't relevant to the original topic, and it would be great if replies at a certain depth were collapsed automatically, just to reduce the number of pages I have to go past to find the next thread in the discussion.

I also wish there was some way to encourage concision in comments. The 824 words (according to my word processor) in the most popular comment is ridiculous to me, I'm not reading that unless it's about something very interesting to me. The article itself is only 1541 words (and I didn't read the whole of that either).

Re: Web Discussions: Flat by Design

#32
If conversations aren't nested, how are you supposed to know what the replies are referencing? There's no effective way to talk to each other and have a real discussion.

All of the 'problems' of nested comments are trivial in comparison to that. There are certainly good use cases for flat comments, and I think Stack Overflow is a good example, but there is a reason why all of the biggest discussion sites use nested comments. There might be more sites with flat comments overall, but that's only because they're much easier to implement.

Re: Web Discussions: Flat by Design

#33

I've mentioned this on here before, but the live-updating approach taken by SBNation sites (I'd guess The Verge, too, but I don't have an account there to know for sure) solves a lot of the issues, including the big ones of "where's the new content?" and "I just want to scroll down" (cause now you're using keyboard shortcuts to navigate to the new stuff). Since I haven't seen the live-updating-with-keyboard-control t…

Yeah, but that's a community flagging / moderation problem. If two people get in a fight in a bar, they need to leave the bar.

Re: Web Discussions: Flat by Design

#34
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have almost 500 HN "rep" and I still can't find any way to downvote. Is this documented anywhere? At Stack Exchange downvotes require 125 rep to cast, and cost you 1 point of rep for each answer downvote. (Question downvotes are free, but still require 125 rep to cast..) This is all listed in the FAQ. The min. requirement to downvote, I'm told, moves upward ever so slightly. I think I managed it just past 500, bu…

> The min. requirement to downvote, I'm told, moves upward ever so slightly. That is what is told, but I think it goes upwards in increments. I recall clearly that I first saw the down arrows right at 500.

It'll get me further from 500, but here's a post that is being made with the intent of making the discussion less flat.

Re: Web Discussions: Flat by Design

#35
post #2

I very often will find a post on HN where the conversation forked in numerous unrelated directions: one thread taking about the politics, one talking about the economics, one talking about the font used on the website, and another angry that the post got enough upvotes to be on the front page in the first place. I consider it of immense value that I can skip most of the content I am not interested, and concentrate on…

Speaking of categories: I was browsing many pages deep in HN a few hours ago and I noticed a ton of "Ask HN:" topics buried on pages 6-10. That kind of implies those should be different category area on the site, rather than being mixed in with the regular "here's a link, discuss the content on that link", perhaps? To me, there seems to be a very broad divide between "here is a link to an article, discuss", and "here…

> Speaking of categories: I was browsing many pages deep in HN a few hours ago and I noticed a ton of "Ask HN:" topics buried on pages 6-10.

I actually almost mentioned this myself as a form of "level", but decided that it wasn't explicit enough in the navigation; I guess it would then have been valuable to just point out "maybe it should be a level". ;P

The analogy to this specific gap in a traditional forum is the category change between "on-topic" and "chat"/"meta"/"general discussion" (with then having the topics come below those section headings, followed by the threads, etc.).

> I have almost 500 HN "rep" and I still can't find any way to downvote.

(Someone else already responded to this comment, but for completion-sake and because I'm the person who called it out in the first place: you need 500 points before you can downvote, so you aren't quite there yet ;P. Downvotes on this site are pretty powerful, actually, so they thereby seem to be reserved for people who have deeply invested in the website, of which there are enough people versus the total amount of content posted that this isn't a problem.)

> There's not even any way to collapse branches here as there is on Reddit...

I agree that this is useful; it is a highly requested feature and I believe it offers a lot of value: it is, of course, an important feature of the explicit tree... within a single collapsed linear level, all content blocks all other content, and you are just screwed if you want to skip anything, as there isn't even a visual differentiator.

(That said, some of us use user scripts to get past this problem; I wrote my own, but there are a few on the GreaseMonkey archive site whose name I'm forgetting, as well as in the Chrome extension store. If the content didn't have the trees at all, you wouldn't be able to do this no matter how hard you tried. That said, again: most online community discussion systems, even the ones that claim to be flat, have trees at least 4-5 deep.)

Re: Web Discussions: Flat by Design

#36

I've always found unthreaded/single threaded conversations to be better when you want the discussion to remain civil and focused. For example, on MetaFilter or Edward Tufte's board. I wish/hope someone puts some effort into studying the difference one day though because it might just be confirmation bias on my part.

This doesn't seem to be working out too well for YouTube or any political site (HuffPost, etc) - have you read through some of those discussions lately? I don't think that single vs multi threaded conversations has any direct correlation with civility.

Re: Web Discussions: Flat by Design

#37
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I could add anything to HN, it would be branch collapsing. And of course I can do that indirectly, via a bookmarklet of Greasemonkey. Branch collapsing makes most of the navigation you describe easier.

It definitely should be here, otherwise you have the "50 reply tangent on politics that I can't avoid reading to get to anything else" problem. It still leaves the "I have to do a bunch of work beyond simply scrolling down to read this discussion" problem. I don't like solutions that put excessive burden on the largest audience of anonymous readers. Write once, read many, and all that.

> It still leaves the "I have to do a bunch of work beyond simply scrolling down to read this discussion" problem. I don't like solutions that put excessive burden on the largest audience of anonymous readers. Write once, read many, and all that.

I don't see how collapsing them all to a linear discussion would help this: you simply get one massive topic overtaking the entire conversation, making it impossible to even have the second discussion at all... if the content doesn't get posted because it is off-topic in the linear model, no amount of scrolling will find it.

Again, though, this is why almost no sites are actually a linear model; the closest you seem to get to a linear community currently is in the medium of real-time chat, where you still have servers divided into channels, but the channels are relatively fixed and difficult to browse.

The result is that you have communities existing within a single server/channel; as an example, there is a community which I started on an IRC server (not iPhone hacking, btw: a bunch of random friends and acquaintances that has grown and shrunk at various points over time, mostly concentrated with people form the small college that I attended) that has existed for years with a single linear thread.

Real-time chat, though, is a drastically different kind of medium: handling multiple real-time conversations is simply hard in a way that having multiple asynchronous conversations is not. I maintain, then, that this is why almost no discussion community has ever had a truly linear model: content tends to fall into 4-5 levels of hierarchy, with at least two of them being under direct user control.

Once you expand the scope of where you look for the tree in this way, you then note that StackOverflow is actually more threaded than classic discussion forums: of the five levels it has (sites, tags--which I will again explicitly point out is just another hierarchy level where the entries in lower levels might be seen in multiple places--, questions, answers, comments), four of them are under immediate user control, and the fifth is decided by a largely democratic process.

In practice, Hacker News threads sometimes get really deep (and I again agree that they can get confusing down there), but the very top-level is sufficiently shallow that you need some of that depth below to have any interesting conversations: if there were only one linear conversation per posted link, things would rapidly get really boring when only one of the politics/economics/etc. angles was able to be covered at a time (by which point the others would have missed their window).

Hacker News, does, though, actually have a form of thread limiting; I didn't go into it in detail in my earlier post, but I'll go ahead and do so now: as you get deeper into a thread, the "reply" button takes longer and longer to appear. This mechanism is actually defeat-able (which is funny, and some might argue a bug: you click "link", and on the comment's own page you can always reply immediately), but it still does help slow the rate at which a thread can get very deep.

Re: Web Discussions: Flat by Design

#38
post #16

"precious few threaded discussion models survive on the web." Citation needed. Seriously, you can't just casually throw out a phrase like that and not expect to back it up. HN seems to be going fine. Reddit seems to be going fine. Facebook has threads now I've noticed and it hasn't exploded in a ball of threading-related fire. I can't think of a website that has died because it uses threads, nor can I think of a webs…

My take on the entire flat versus threaded discussion is that it boils down to a few facts.

1) Outside of computers people don't experience recorded threaded discussions

Instead what they experience is much like a flat forum. Everybody talks in chronological order about the current topic at hand. Some small number of side conversations are free to start, but too many and the rooms becomes noisy and all the conversations are hard to follow. If you come to the end of a discussion thread there is no record of the discussion you can refer to and pick the thread up elsewhere. Instead the best that can be done in one participant recalls some kernel of a previous thread and throws that back into the conversation in the hope that other participants will both be interested in discussing it and remember enough of that previous thread to continue.

For normal human discussions this is fine; there are a small maximum number of participants, conversations are limited in both time span and time between comment and separating the jumble of chronologically ordered threads is labour intensive.

The environment which makes this flat threading model of conversation work in the real world don't hold. An Internet discussion can have hundreds of participants and span weeks with any particular person responding only once a day. With suitable UI the computer can carry the entire burden of organizing and displaying the record of conversation in any subthread of discussion.

2) Web forum writers don't pay attention to the lessons of Usenet.

Atwood himself mentions Usenet and quickly discards it. This is the single biggest mistake of thread proponents and forum developers. News readers have already tackled the most serious issues with a threaded display with a few powerful techniques:

The first is that newsreaders explicitly show their user which posts are new since they've last read the thread. This solves the issues of "Are there new replies?" and "Buried responses". It does this by allowing users to skip to the next new post quickly as well as to see which subthreads have new replies.

The second is that news readers allow the user to trivially close an entire subthread or mark it read. I would argue that this is the second most important feature of any threaded system anywhere and yet is missing in nearly every threaded commenting system. When somebody comes back to a discussion they don't tend to be interested in rereading posts they've already seen. Instead they want to view the new posts yet have the thread context readily available.

The lessons of Usenet are not complicated, but they do depend on the understanding that computers should do work for humans. It's more work to track which posts a particular user has read, but it helps the user. It's more work to jump to the next unread post or collapse a subthread in the UI, but it helps the user.

3) Nobody seems to realize the UI middle ground between flat and threaded.

The vast majority of the cause of threads indenting themselves into infinity is a linear chain of responses, usually two people going back and forth. While this is technically threaded out to infinity, it is effectively a flat discussion in chronological order.

Take a look at the threading display Nitpick uses http://travisbrown.ca/files/nested_threading.html .

Nitpick doesn't display the technical threading, but instead the effective threading. Instead of indenting a linear series of replies once for each reply, it displays one indentation for the entire linear subthread. When the technical threading doesn't add any information it isn't displayed. You don't have to scroll right and down to read it, just down.

It seems that a threaded forum which took these considerations to heart would solve all his issues or at least reduce them to minor annoyances. Yes it's still a tree and as Usenet has shown that's not always enough, but most of the time it is. If the computer provides the necessary tools to navigate to new posts in a thread then it doesn't matter where in a thread the response goes, you'll be able to find it when new trivially. If you don't indent when it doesn't add value you aren't required to scroll left.

All this leaves is the fact that you have to scroll down. As you state his complain seems primarily focused on having to close subthreads he isn't interested in. This seems like a feature and not a bug. You can just read downwards, it just takes longer than collapsing the thread. In a flat forum you have no other option but to scroll down.

Re: Web Discussions: Flat by Design

#39
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I could add anything to HN, it would be branch collapsing. And of course I can do that indirectly, via a bookmarklet of Greasemonkey. Branch collapsing makes most of the navigation you describe easier.

I like the way reddit makes discussions more manageable, I often get frustrated with multiple page discussions in Hacker News that aren't relevant to the original topic, and it would be great if replies at a certain depth were collapsed automatically, just to reduce the number of pages I have to go past to find the next thread in the discussion. I also wish there was some way to encourage concision in comments. The 8…

> ...it would be great if replies at a certain depth were collapsed automatically...

I agree: I love that feature. However, Reddit then has the problem that you often find a really stupid comment rebutted by the most exciting and interesting comment on the entire thread; in such a situation, the stupid comment gets downvoted and manages to auto-collapse away the juicy gold hiding below. Slashdot handled this better: they auto-collapse threads, but if an auto-collapsed thread contains a highly-ranked comment, it "bubbles out"... as in, you can still see it, even though its parent has been collapsed... I'm not certain how to best describe it, but it is amazingly useful.

> I also wish there was some way to encourage concision in comments. ... The article itself is only 1541 words (and I didn't read the whole of that either).

This community seems to encourage well-thought-out replies; I could technically have posted a "blog response", but I find it more interesting to end up in conversations in the comments of the articles where I think of things to write. (I may actually soon start a more real blog, but I've always seen that as an awkward way to do back/forths.) Personally, I find the longer comments to be the ones that are more valuable, and would rather short comments be discouraged ;P.

(Another solution to this, btw, is to just have comments get collapsed to something that then has a "Read More" that inline-expands to the full comment; this is how Facebook solves this, as otherwise it would become a problem that your Timeline or Newsfeed was dominated by a couple very long posts instead of being an overview of the material available. As someone who actually does read and value long comments, however, I have mixed feelings about this. I mean, if you didn't read the whole of the article, it becomes difficult to really comment on it effectively: it doesn't take that long.)

Re: Web Discussions: Flat by Design

#40
I'd just like to note that vBulletin, used on on many of the largest web forums on the internet, historically, and presently, has for some time supported a dual flat and threaded view. Most sites will default to the flat, but there is a setting to set it per user to threaded. That's why every post has their own reply link/button - to maintain the threading.
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