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Why Estonians invite strangers into their back gardens each summer

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Re: Why Estonians invite strangers into their back gardens each summer

#31

Post by tauntz »

Markoff wrote: post #29
tauntz wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends - for some, it's a commercial event. For others, like me, it's just an opportunity to challenge yourself and see if you can make delicious food for a bunch of people :) I'll be happy if I can cover the cost of ingredients this weekend, but if not, that's fine too!

TLDR you still want money from your visitors, no matter whether to cover expenses or make profit, that's not what we call hospitality back here in central Europe. Hospitality is when you don't expect anything in return for inviting someone somewhere, can't imagine inviting someone to my place and then charge them my expenses, that's very USan way of invitation...

I was not commenting on the "hospitality" definition but on the "earn tax free money" aspect. Just saying, that the goal, for most (?), is not.. this.

Re: Why Estonians invite strangers into their back gardens each summer

#32

Post by jaen »

someoneeestis wrote: post #9

I live in Estonia for a very long time now, over a decade. I love the kodukohvikud (Home Cafes) but the framing of "inviting strangers" is a little odd. It's not free. While there is a lot of theoretical opportunity for bonding, it's still just a temporary commercial enterprise. For anyone who has lived here, it's a known fact that Estonians won't exactly engage with strangers in a warm way, if at all. Smiling at str…

> Smiling at strangers is considered poor social form here and it doesn't matter if you're a foreigner or native.

It's not. Insincerity and mindless, automatic smiles might be a little bit frowned upon. Genuine, but subtle smiles (as appropriate for strangers) are appreciated, at least for the younger generation. The older generation might still be somewhat "traumatized" by the Soviet occupation and its cultural effects.

Re: Why Estonians invite strangers into their back gardens each summer

#33

Post by someoneeestis »

jaen wrote: post #32
someoneeestis wrote: post #9

I live in Estonia for a very long time now, over a decade. I love the kodukohvikud (Home Cafes) but the framing of "inviting strangers" is a little odd. It's not free. While there is a lot of theoretical opportunity for bonding, it's still just a temporary commercial enterprise. For anyone who has lived here, it's a known fact that Estonians won't exactly engage with strangers in a warm way, if at all. Smiling at str…

> Smiling at strangers is considered poor social form here and it doesn't matter if you're a foreigner or native. It's not. Insincerity and mindless, automatic smiles might be a little bit frowned upon. Genuine, but subtle smiles (as appropriate for strangers) are appreciated, at least for the younger generation. The older generation might still be somewhat "traumatized" by the Soviet occupation and its cultural effe…

Well, you can tell that to all the Nõmme, Tondi, Pirita, Kesklinn, Tartu, Viljandi, Karksi-Nuia amongst other places I've lived where I've smiled and said "Tere hommikust!" to as they turned their face away and pretended I didn't exist.

I've also lived in Amsterdam and even people on the street who were not my neighbors smiled and said good morning and often that triggered a little conversation and laughters.

Like I said, I'm Brazilian and I've also lived in Ireland where people are super warm. There is no "insincerity" and "mindless" assumed, only the desire to make our days a little more bearable, warm and welcoming.

The younger generation is better indeed but they also come with a new set of anti-social behavior. Just like every generation, really. Not blaming either one in here.

The attitude always shifts a little when I speak Estonian, though and for that I'm happy enough. I have adapted but will never stop smiling at the shops or at the people who live nearby. I don't expect them to be like me but I also won't erase myself as if I'm being insincere because I'm simply not. I rather be a positive force for change.

To each their own, I reckon. I guess a good neighbor it's the one you don't talk to.

Re: Why Estonians invite strangers into their back gardens each summer

#34

Post by embedding-shape »

jaen wrote: post #32
someoneeestis wrote: post #9

I live in Estonia for a very long time now, over a decade. I love the kodukohvikud (Home Cafes) but the framing of "inviting strangers" is a little odd. It's not free. While there is a lot of theoretical opportunity for bonding, it's still just a temporary commercial enterprise. For anyone who has lived here, it's a known fact that Estonians won't exactly engage with strangers in a warm way, if at all. Smiling at str…

> Smiling at strangers is considered poor social form here and it doesn't matter if you're a foreigner or native. It's not. Insincerity and mindless, automatic smiles might be a little bit frowned upon. Genuine, but subtle smiles (as appropriate for strangers) are appreciated, at least for the younger generation. The older generation might still be somewhat "traumatized" by the Soviet occupation and its cultural effe…

Things like these tend to differ wildly based on how big the population is at the place. In many countries, people in small towns will smile and greet you even if you're a stranger, while in metropolitan areas people won't even look in your direction unless some emergency or out of the ordinary stuff goes on. Also the geographical location can matter, especially in larger countries, not sure this applies to Estonia though, worth considering maybe :)

Could be one of you is sharing the experience of life in a city, while the other is sharing the experience of some smaller places, or just two places very far away from each other?

Re: Why Estonians invite strangers into their back gardens each summer

#35

Post by someoneeestis »

embedding-shape wrote: post #34
jaen wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Smiling at strangers is considered poor social form here and it doesn't matter if you're a foreigner or native. It's not. Insincerity and mindless, automatic smiles might be a little bit frowned upon. Genuine, but subtle smiles (as appropriate for strangers) are appreciated, at least for the younger generation. The older generation might still be somewhat "traumatized" by the Soviet occupation and its cultural effe…

Things like these tend to differ wildly based on how big the population is at the place. In many countries, people in small towns will smile and greet you even if you're a stranger, while in metropolitan areas people won't even look in your direction unless some emergency or out of the ordinary stuff goes on. Also the geographical location can matter, especially in larger countries, not sure this applies to Estonia t…

I've lived in both biggest cities in Estonia and small towns as well as Dublin and Amsterdam. So I've experienced either side of the coin. The fact is that the collective conscience of Estonians (and perhaps Baltics in general) works like that. I love this place with all my heart and I'm not claiming to hold any absolute truth, but perception built over 12 years here and years in other places.

I'm totally okay with disagreeing, I was just answering in earnest.

Re: Why Estonians invite strangers into their back gardens each summer

#36

Post by jaen »

someoneeestis wrote: post #33
jaen wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Smiling at strangers is considered poor social form here and it doesn't matter if you're a foreigner or native. It's not. Insincerity and mindless, automatic smiles might be a little bit frowned upon. Genuine, but subtle smiles (as appropriate for strangers) are appreciated, at least for the younger generation. The older generation might still be somewhat "traumatized" by the Soviet occupation and its cultural effe…

Well, you can tell that to all the Nõmme, Tondi, Pirita, Kesklinn, Tartu, Viljandi, Karksi-Nuia amongst other places I've lived where I've smiled and said "Tere hommikust!" to as they turned their face away and pretended I didn't exist. I've also lived in Amsterdam and even people on the street who were not my neighbors smiled and said good morning and often that triggered a little conversation and laughters. Like I…

I didn't imply that you were being insincere...

re: the greeting, I think introverts around the world do not necessarily appreciate being randomly greeted by strangers, they just get used to it if the culture is like that. From that perspective, I don't think just a random greeting from a stranger always makes people feel more warm and the days more bearable either. It's more of a correlation rather than causation.

People have different personalities and different associations.

Re: Why Estonians invite strangers into their back gardens each summer

#38

Post by someoneeestis »

jaen wrote: post #36
someoneeestis wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you can tell that to all the Nõmme, Tondi, Pirita, Kesklinn, Tartu, Viljandi, Karksi-Nuia amongst other places I've lived where I've smiled and said "Tere hommikust!" to as they turned their face away and pretended I didn't exist. I've also lived in Amsterdam and even people on the street who were not my neighbors smiled and said good morning and often that triggered a little conversation and laughters. Like I…

I didn't imply that you were being insincere... re: the greeting, I think introverts around the world do not necessarily appreciate being randomly greeted by strangers, they just get used to it if the culture is like that. From that perspective, I don't think just a random greeting from a stranger always makes people feel more warm and the days more bearable either. It's more of a correlation rather than causation. P…

Totally agree with you, introverts everywhere will frown upon that. But there's a inherent difference between the "general" aspects of the culture and friendliness of every country. I was just highlighting a general aspect of Estonian culture.

I've also had amazing and unforgettable memories in Estonia with people who I never saw again in my life. It's just harder in here.

As for correlation, a single stranger certainly not. But I have lost count of how many Estonians visited UK/Ireland/Spain and came back telling me they were so happy about being an "amigo" or at having incredible customer service that didn't make them feel unwelcome like a chore.

It does matter.

Re: Why Estonians invite strangers into their back gardens each summer

#40

Post by iammjm »

Markoff wrote: post #29
tauntz wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends - for some, it's a commercial event. For others, like me, it's just an opportunity to challenge yourself and see if you can make delicious food for a bunch of people :) I'll be happy if I can cover the cost of ingredients this weekend, but if not, that's fine too!

TLDR you still want money from your visitors, no matter whether to cover expenses or make profit, that's not what we call hospitality back here in central Europe. Hospitality is when you don't expect anything in return for inviting someone somewhere, can't imagine inviting someone to my place and then charge them my expenses, that's very USan way of invitation...

That’s your personal and rather narrow definition of hospitality, and that’s also coming from someone from Central Europe. There definitely can be hospitality with reciprocity, like when my friends host a party and invite me and everybody brings drinks or snacks or drugs or anything else they want to contribute, or even leave some money if they didn’t manage to bring anything
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