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Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

bbc.com

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Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#31

Post by HedonicEscal8r »

tosti wrote: post #30
MSFT_Edging wrote: post #3

This thread will likely have extensive hate on a very small portion of the population. A reminder that actual people have been turned into a cultural wedge issue, their lives put in danger due to the vitriol the culture war issue has stirred. If you have known a person who has transitioned, you'd likely see someone happier after being able to transition. Laws targeting trans people won't stop an actual criminal from…

You have to be an adult to get a tattoo. Because by then, you're expected to be able to make a well-informed descision and be able to think of possible coonsequences. Why on earth would a child be allowed to decide on life-changing or even life-shattering bodily harm?

If you are 11 and wait 7 years to get a tattoo, your tattoo will look just as good or better.

If you are 11 and wait 7 years to transition, you will suffer irreversible physical and psychological damage. You will have missed formative social experiences. You will have to get expensive, painful surgeries to partially correct what was done to you.

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#32

Post by ipaddr »

summermusic wrote: post #11
cubefox wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Children and teens can absolutely know these things about themselves. The article quotes a campaigner against the trial who first transitioned and then detransitioned (as far as this was still possible I assume, since a lot is irreversible). So kids can absolutely make the wrong decision. The question is what the relative frequency of these mistakes is.

"In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret. For some, regret was temporary, but a small number went on to have detransitioning or reversal surgeries, the 2021 review said." https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detr...

Dutch study (Steensma 2013) followed 127 children who were referred to the Gender Identity clinic in Amsterdam under the age of 12. The study looked to see if these children were still gender dysphoric by the time they reached adolescence at age fifteen. 37% of these children had persisted. However 64% of children had either desisted or were no longer traceable. Since there is only one Gender Identity clinic for children in Holland it can be assumed that the latter no longer required support and so had also desisted.

Most change their mind.

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#33

Post by ipaddr »

MSFT_Edging wrote: post #13
cubefox wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weak doesn't mean "evil" here. If the effect is strong, but a lot of kids end up regretting it later, then this would be bad.

~1% regret rate. https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detr...

Dutch study (Steensma 2013) followed 127 children who were referred to the Gender Identity clinic in Amsterdam under the age of 12. The study looked to see if these children were still gender dysphoric by the time they reached adolescence at age fifteen. 37% of these children had persisted. However 64% of children had either desisted or were no longer traceable. Since there is only one Gender Identity clinic for children in Holland it can be assumed that the latter no longer required support and so had also desisted

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#34

Post by plorkyeran »

tosti wrote: post #30
MSFT_Edging wrote: post #3

This thread will likely have extensive hate on a very small portion of the population. A reminder that actual people have been turned into a cultural wedge issue, their lives put in danger due to the vitriol the culture war issue has stirred. If you have known a person who has transitioned, you'd likely see someone happier after being able to transition. Laws targeting trans people won't stop an actual criminal from…

You have to be an adult to get a tattoo. Because by then, you're expected to be able to make a well-informed descision and be able to think of possible coonsequences. Why on earth would a child be allowed to decide on life-changing or even life-shattering bodily harm?

The entire purpose of puberty blockers is to enable deferring the decision until you are an adult and can make a well-informed decision. The make an irrevocable decision right now options are to go through natural puberty or immediately go on HRT.

We also let children decide on inflicting life-shattering bodily harm to themselves all the time. The classic examples are things like contact sports (children playing tackle football is pretty fucked up) and ballet. In the latter case they're like four when they commit to having deformed feet.

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#35

Post by HedonicEscal8r »

plorkyeran wrote: post #34
tosti wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to be an adult to get a tattoo. Because by then, you're expected to be able to make a well-informed descision and be able to think of possible coonsequences. Why on earth would a child be allowed to decide on life-changing or even life-shattering bodily harm?

The entire purpose of puberty blockers is to enable deferring the decision until you are an adult and can make a well-informed decision. The make an irrevocable decision right now options are to go through natural puberty or immediately go on HRT. We also let children decide on inflicting life-shattering bodily harm to themselves all the time. The classic examples are things like contact sports (children playing tack…

I disagree with this, puberty blockers should be used sparingly and certainly should not be taken until adulthood. Can you imagine starting puberty at 18?

Trans children deserve to mature at the same time as their peers.

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#36

Post by tosti »

HedonicEscal8r wrote: post #31
tosti wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to be an adult to get a tattoo. Because by then, you're expected to be able to make a well-informed descision and be able to think of possible coonsequences. Why on earth would a child be allowed to decide on life-changing or even life-shattering bodily harm?

If you are 11 and wait 7 years to get a tattoo, your tattoo will look just as good or better. If you are 11 and wait 7 years to transition, you will suffer irreversible physical and psychological damage. You will have missed formative social experiences. You will have to get expensive, painful surgeries to partially correct what was done to you.

At least you'll have a better idea if it's psychosomatic or not.

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#37

Post by rootusrootus »

HedonicEscal8r wrote: post #22
AlexandrB wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do it all the time with people who believe they should be amputees. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/body-integrit...

Which is also wrong. People living with BIID are (usually) not irrational. The small percentage that do seek amputation have usually exhausted all treatment options, and find that amputation improves their quality of life.

We should let them, if they are of sound mind and capable of consenting. Part of that means they are not a minor.

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#38

Post by a_shovel »

plorkyeran wrote: post #34
tosti wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to be an adult to get a tattoo. Because by then, you're expected to be able to make a well-informed descision and be able to think of possible coonsequences. Why on earth would a child be allowed to decide on life-changing or even life-shattering bodily harm?

The entire purpose of puberty blockers is to enable deferring the decision until you are an adult and can make a well-informed decision. The make an irrevocable decision right now options are to go through natural puberty or immediately go on HRT. We also let children decide on inflicting life-shattering bodily harm to themselves all the time. The classic examples are things like contact sports (children playing tack…

Puberty blockers are not meant to be prescribed from onset of puberty to adulthood. (I don't think anyone wants to be just starting puberty at 18.) They're meant to buy time for the patient to make a decision and get counseling if they need it if they're not sure they want a natal puberty or HRT at the onset of puberty. They will have to decide as a minor.

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#39

Post by MSFT_Edging »

HedonicEscal8r wrote: post #35
plorkyeran wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire purpose of puberty blockers is to enable deferring the decision until you are an adult and can make a well-informed decision. The make an irrevocable decision right now options are to go through natural puberty or immediately go on HRT. We also let children decide on inflicting life-shattering bodily harm to themselves all the time. The classic examples are things like contact sports (children playing tack…

I disagree with this, puberty blockers should be used sparingly and certainly should not be taken until adulthood. Can you imagine starting puberty at 18? Trans children deserve to mature at the same time as their peers.

> certainly should not be taken until adulthood

When do you think puberty happens?

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#40

Post by leawi »

sail2boat3 wrote: post #10

As someone who has gone through a phase of questioning my ... inner state of the matter on this topic, now in retrospect, I am so so so so soooooo glad that such options were not readily available to me. If I was that age in the current world, I simply would've done it. Given the permanent nature of a transition on a body, I really wish the advocates of pushing this at young ages would not push back against discussio…

"Such stories break my heart way more than someone being unable to transition before a certain age."

Why is that? As the other commenter here suggested, this looks like a lack of empathy to me.

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