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Mondragon Corporation – a federation of co-operatives

en.wikipedia.org

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Re: Mondragon Corporation – a federation of co-operatives

#31

"Mutualism" by Sara Horowitz was an interesting book that discussed some of the history of this style of worker owned businesses. She traces some of it's history, and points out other examples of this style of worker or member governance showing up in other organizations: https://www.porchlightbooks.com/products/mutualism-sara-horo... Great read, highly recommend.

Yea, I agree, it's a great book!

It should be said that Sara [1] was also the founder of the Freelancers Union [2], offering solo benefits and other resources to freelancers.

The book is great because it's so practical, with 3 org design principles [3]:

[1] A solidaristic community [2] An economic mechanism that supports the community's mission [3] A long-term time horizon where the economic value is recycled back to the community

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sara_Horowitz

https://freelancersunion.org/

https://ssir.org/articles/entry/mutualism-next-generation

Re: Mondragon Corporation – a federation of co-operatives

#32
post #30

Most people don't know this, but Huawei is another giant cooperative. > Huawei Investment & Holding Co., Ltd. is a private company wholly owned by 169,054 of its employees and retired beneficiaries. As of December 31, 2025, company founder Ren Zhengfei's investment accounts for nearly 0.59% of the company’s total share capital. https://www.huawei.com/en/media-center/company-facts

I believe it's an ESOP, but not a co-op because the workers don't have much voting control of the company.

Re: Mondragon Corporation – a federation of co-operatives

#33
post #27
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent post is not even the worst offender. In his (otherwise good) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/23_Things_They_Don%27t_Tell_Yo... , Ha-Joon Chang completely flips the meaning between free markets and capitalism. I would say that capitalism is not only characterized by private ownership of capital, but also by free market for labor, which could be almost considered a complementary feature (other side of the same…

Socialism is completely incompatible with free markets. Free markets typically stop being opinionated beyond the concept of enforcing contracts/consent, i.e. people are allowed to structure their economic relationships with one another however they want, they just have to respect their agreements. Socialism is a prescriptive ideology, it is concerned precisely with the nature of the economic relationships people make…

Not sure why this comment is downvoted. In the context of Marxian Socialism and Command Economies, it's very much true that socialism is incompatible with free markets.

Going even further, without a free market for labour, there's no true worker emancipation. Even with "worker-ownership" (read corporate-ownership under a democratic governance), each worker's power is still diluted by the governing body (which, funnily enough, means socialism strengthens capitalism as "control by those who own capital" while weakening capitalism as "free markets").

Re: Mondragon Corporation – a federation of co-operatives

#34
post #28
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Socialism is completely incompatible with free markets. Free markets typically stop being opinionated beyond the concept of enforcing contracts/consent, i.e. people are allowed to structure their economic relationships with one another however they want, they just have to respect their agreements. Socialism is a prescriptive ideology, it is concerned precisely with the nature of the economic relationships people make…

>> Capitalism is ... OTOH socialism ... > No, socialism is not ... and capitalism is ... I often wonder if these classifications have long outlived their usefulness, and only lead to endless, often heated, ideological discussions about their definition. To the extent that those benefiting most from observably-broken-form-of-global-capitalism can use that as a tool to sow division and strife and ensure nothing changes…

I don't think it's a tool for sowing division. There is a significant group of self-proclaimed socialists who proudly stan the Soviet Union and Mao's China, so I think it's more of a case of ideologies being more messy than they seem.

Personally, I don't care as much about the label themselves as I do about the relationships they describe behind.

Re: Mondragon Corporation – a federation of co-operatives

#35
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Socialism is completely incompatible with free markets. Free markets typically stop being opinionated beyond the concept of enforcing contracts/consent, i.e. people are allowed to structure their economic relationships with one another however they want, they just have to respect their agreements. Socialism is a prescriptive ideology, it is concerned precisely with the nature of the economic relationships people make…

Not sure why this comment is downvoted. In the context of Marxian Socialism and Command Economies, it's very much true that socialism is incompatible with free markets. Going even further, without a free market for labour, there's no true worker emancipation. Even with "worker-ownership" (read corporate-ownership under a democratic governance), each worker's power is still diluted by the governing body (which, funnil…

> Not sure why this comment is downvoted

I didn't downvote it (obviously), but, for starters, it confuses socialism with communism (and also makes a typical categorical error in assuming that FEATTATEATTN is an implementation rather than desired value).

Second, it confuses capitalism (existing systems) with free market (some kind of ideal). It also pretends "free market" is a value neutral proposition. That completely ignores real-world role played by property, information, money and other multiparty relationships that socialism (and other regulations) try to address.

Third, it ignores the fact that socialism has been, not extensively, but successfully, implemented in the real world. (Mondragon and other worker coops, postwar tripartity models of worker participation in company control, etc.)

Lastly, it treats "free market" as an all-or-nothing proposition, which is never the case. There is, for example, no free market for nuclear bombs or for human children, and for a good reason.

Which brings us to your second paragraph, why rejecting free market can emancipate the workers. Treating labor as a commodity means that the person who performs the labor loses their decision power to the market, and so they lose freedom. Thus socialism demands that you do not separate human from the labor, and so they should always have a say over conditions in which they perform the labor. (This is different from other commodities, which, being inanimate objects, do not have a say about how they are used.) Accepting that free market for labor shouldn't exist is not really that different from accepting that free market for slaves shouldn't exist; in both cases there is human freedom attached which shouldn't be simply subjugated to the decisions of the "free market".

I would also say that worker coops show that your 2nd paragraph is empirically untrue. (Which is also bad for that model, because they often struggle to find capital, most of it being owned by capitalists who demand control over it.)

Re: Mondragon Corporation – a federation of co-operatives

#36
post #30

Most people don't know this, but Huawei is another giant cooperative. > Huawei Investment & Holding Co., Ltd. is a private company wholly owned by 169,054 of its employees and retired beneficiaries. As of December 31, 2025, company founder Ren Zhengfei's investment accounts for nearly 0.59% of the company’s total share capital. https://www.huawei.com/en/media-center/company-facts

I believe it's an ESOP, but not a co-op because the workers don't have much voting control of the company.

I think you're right regarding that. From what I read, voting rights are restricted,a and senior executives retain veto power over major decisions.

Re: Mondragon Corporation – a federation of co-operatives

#37
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why this comment is downvoted. In the context of Marxian Socialism and Command Economies, it's very much true that socialism is incompatible with free markets. Going even further, without a free market for labour, there's no true worker emancipation. Even with "worker-ownership" (read corporate-ownership under a democratic governance), each worker's power is still diluted by the governing body (which, funnil…

> Not sure why this comment is downvoted I didn't downvote it (obviously), but, for starters, it confuses socialism with communism (and also makes a typical categorical error in assuming that FEATTATEATTN is an implementation rather than desired value). Second, it confuses capitalism (existing systems) with free market (some kind of ideal). It also pretends "free market" is a value neutral proposition. That completel…

In regards to socialist/communist confusion, OP primarily refers using the term "socialism", except at the end where they use "socialist communist countries", likely referring to the self-proclaimed socialist countries that strive/strived towards communism. (I'm not sure FEATTATEATTN means here)

> There is, for example, no free market for nuclear bombs or for human children, and for a good reason.

Reasons that don't contradict OP's: "Free markets typically stop being opinionated beyond the concept of enforcing contracts/consent." Nuclear bombs only current purpose is indiscriminate eradication of human life and child trafficking is well... child trafficking. They all break consent. The same can be said about slavery, but not labour.

Which brings to the core of this discussion: the free market of labour. The addition of the free market of labour cannot, on its own, result in loss of self-control by either party. Removing it, however, rewards those who benefit the most from the current arrangement, which is most likely to be the employers.

While commodities, and other conventional properties, indeed do not have a will of their own; once appropriated, they become an extension of the will of their owner. With this in mind, labour, capital and commodities aren't different: neither the human actions applied to make bread, nor the machines needed to make bread nor the bread itself care about their prices or how they are used, but their owners do. In both cases, the same human freedoms are being affected in the same way. Slavery is special because the traded resource in question is another human being, someone capable of self-ownership, and the slaver isn't simply dictating on, for sake of simplicity, non-essential part of their body as with labour and commodities, but the slave's whole body and life, thus violating the consent part.

Which segways to your final paragraph. When I mentioned "worker-ownership", I was specifically alluding to worker coops. They not only do not prove what I said untrue, they, both theoretically and empirically (but mostly theoretically, yet), prove it true. One empirical part is the fact that Mondragon's increasing reliance on contractors, for instance. But, more interestingly, is the fact that, presuming that all ~70,000 Mondragon employees are members (they aren't), each would have around 0,0014% share. Given that Mondragon works under indirect democracy, this share doesn't even translate to direct influence. Is this painting the image of worker emancipation? Notice how the corporate power over the individual is still strong - sure smells like capitalism, as defined as "control by those who own capital", except "those" here is a corporation, which is not that different from today.

Given that you brought the slavery, likely for the analogy with wage-slavery - trying to fix workers by making their employers democratic is like solving slavery by making their slavers republics. The proper solution is to give direct private ownership over the means of production to all, but that's likely economically infeasible (but who knows, society where everyone is a capitalist like this would be neat). However, we can fix the issue with coops previously by keeping them small, but to handle the large contingency of workers and their diversity, a lot more coops would need to exist. Furthermore, these coops would need to be able triage workers that fit into their culture, and worker would need to be able to chose coops that satifify them. That implies a free market of labour. It points to the issue being more located in the concentration of power on people, not individuals, which means socialism can't do anything to fix this, specially if it implies getting rid of the free market of labour. Perhaps pushing for coops can help prevent corporate power concentration, but a healthy free market of labour is critical.

Re: Mondragon Corporation – a federation of co-operatives

#38
post #10
post #8

Why don't cooperatives of IT professionals exist? It's a business with low capital entry and high dividends. Workers should prefer to own their company as risks are really low (in contrast to other industries).

They might be rare, but they do exist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igalia

Igalia is very serious about worker ownership. They aren't legally structured as a cooperative, as they don't technically meet the definition - as I understand it, they were nervous about the idea of committing wholly to new employees getting an equal vote right away, so there is a longer, more gradual process through which employees become owners and gain voting rights. But a very large fraction have them, and (like a cooperative) their rights are legally enforceable.

Re: Mondragon Corporation – a federation of co-operatives

#39

"Mutualism" by Sara Horowitz was an interesting book that discussed some of the history of this style of worker owned businesses. She traces some of it's history, and points out other examples of this style of worker or member governance showing up in other organizations: https://www.porchlightbooks.com/products/mutualism-sara-horo... Great read, highly recommend.

Yea, I agree, it's a great book! It should be said that Sara [1] was also the founder of the Freelancers Union [2], offering solo benefits and other resources to freelancers. The book is great because it's so practical, with 3 org design principles [3]: [1] A solidaristic community [2] An economic mechanism that supports the community's mission [3] A long-term time horizon where the economic value is recycled back to…

Interesting.

I think part of the reason people assume it's not possible is that (at least in the UK) there is so much faux-consultation which has approximately no effect; both in the public and private sector. But it looks superficially like the same thing.

Re: Mondragon Corporation – a federation of co-operatives

#40
post #12
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism is not simply free markers - it means "control by people with capital." People control society proportionally to how much capital they have, and those who control vast boards of capital are very uninterested in allowing capital to be spread around more equitably.

The parent post is not even the worst offender. In his (otherwise good) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/23_Things_They_Don%27t_Tell_Yo... , Ha-Joon Chang completely flips the meaning between free markets and capitalism. I would say that capitalism is not only characterized by private ownership of capital, but also by free market for labor, which could be almost considered a complementary feature (other side of the same…

Control by billionaires is incompatible with free markets. A billionaire will always use his power to close up the market and grant himself a monopoly.

Socialism isn't even well-defined.

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