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Ghost Cut – Or why Cut and Paste is broken everywhere

ishmael.textualize.io

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Re: Ghost Cut – Or why Cut and Paste is broken everywhere

#31

Post by 0gs »

drdexebtjl wrote: post #25
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #8

> The second flaw is that a cut reflows the document. A cut and paste is almost always for the purposes of moving text, and yet the instant I cut, the text reflows and I have to locate the point where I want to paste all over again. It's true that cut and paste reflows text twice (once on cut and once on paste), but it does so in the place where your eyes are already looking. Ghost cut reflows only once (on paste), b…

The problem with Undo reverting the clipboard state is that Undo is usually file or app-local, but the clipboard is shared. You can cut from app A, switch to app B, cut something else from app B, then go back to app A and undo the cut. “Ghost cut” can work across apps with reasonable undo support by not using the clipboard at all and some form of IPC instead. For example, when you cut from app B before resolving the…

wow OS-level undo would be a way cooler solution to this problem

Re: Ghost Cut – Or why Cut and Paste is broken everywhere

#32

Post by Mogzol »

throwawayffffas wrote: post #22

Cut and Paste is three operations. Cut is two operations copy and delete, copy is never undone by undo it should not be undone when you cut either. I cut, undo, ..., undo, and paste multiple times a day. It's a feature not a bug. > Cut & Paste is not atomic Yes because it's two different actions. What does "Ghost Cut" do if you paste multiple times? Paste the cut text first and then what? The previous thing in your c…

> I cut, undo, ..., undo, and paste multiple times a day.

Why would you cut + undo as opposed to just copy? Are they not the same operation at that point?

Re: Ghost Cut – Or why Cut and Paste is broken everywhere

#33

Post by dec0dedab0de »

jerf wrote: post #26

Cut and paste is broken everywhere because of the number of apps that think they know better and "fix" it. My bitterness is compounded by being on Linux, where this is probably even more encouraged in GUI apps then in other OSes. But I still have enough independent arguments with web sites, on my phone, and even in the context of the same application at times to have valid complaints just based on those. Clipboards d…

I wish the OSes wouldn't even expose to the applications anything about copy, cut, and paste. From the applications perspective it should be indistinguishable from any other io.

Re: Ghost Cut – Or why Cut and Paste is broken everywhere

#34

Post by Mogzol »

blt wrote: post #24
VerifiedReports wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I disagree that the cited behavior is defective. But I respect his pointing-out of the shortcomings and offering other options. I find myself using the clipboard-erasure "defect" somewhat frequently to cut something to the clipboard, and then undoing the change and using the clipboard contents. And this is specifically useful in a way that merely copying isn't... but at the moment I can't remember why, or whethe…

It's really natural! - make a bunch of edits - decide I don't like all of them - copy the part I want to keep - undo a bunch - paste the good part This is copy, not cut, but it wouldn't work if the clipboard state was part of the undo system.

The article isn't arguing that clipboard state should be part of the undo system, it is arguing that cut shouldn't touch clipboard state. In the "Side effects" section they mention if you want the contents to go to the clipboard, then you should use copy instead of cut.

Re: Ghost Cut – Or why Cut and Paste is broken everywhere

#35

Post by rickydroll »

Cut and paste is a UI failure; it only works kinda if you have fully functional hands. If your hands don't work right, or you have tremors or other mobility impairments, your chances of succeeding with cut and paste drop off significantly.

The Emacs mark-and-point UI works for everyone: fully functional hands, partially functioning hands, or even speech recognition. It also solves the problem of copy, cut, and paste described in the article.

Re: Ghost Cut – Or why Cut and Paste is broken everywhere

#36

Post by sharkjacobs »

Mogzol wrote: post #32
throwawayffffas wrote: post #22

Cut and Paste is three operations. Cut is two operations copy and delete, copy is never undone by undo it should not be undone when you cut either. I cut, undo, ..., undo, and paste multiple times a day. It's a feature not a bug. > Cut & Paste is not atomic Yes because it's two different actions. What does "Ghost Cut" do if you paste multiple times? Paste the cut text first and then what? The previous thing in your c…

> I cut, undo, ..., undo, and paste multiple times a day. Why would you cut + undo as opposed to just copy? Are they not the same operation at that point?

I often cut + undo because seeing the cut is feedback which tells me the operation successfully put the content into clipboard. This is not always a guarantee especially in web apps, and sometimes I just have focus on the wrong window.

Re: Ghost Cut – Or why Cut and Paste is broken everywhere

#37

Post by vjulian »

Mogzol wrote: post #32
throwawayffffas wrote: post #22

Cut and Paste is three operations. Cut is two operations copy and delete, copy is never undone by undo it should not be undone when you cut either. I cut, undo, ..., undo, and paste multiple times a day. It's a feature not a bug. > Cut & Paste is not atomic Yes because it's two different actions. What does "Ghost Cut" do if you paste multiple times? Paste the cut text first and then what? The previous thing in your c…

> I cut, undo, ..., undo, and paste multiple times a day. Why would you cut + undo as opposed to just copy? Are they not the same operation at that point?

I feel as though I’m reading the script to a Monty Python sketch.

Re: Ghost Cut – Or why Cut and Paste is broken everywhere

#38

Post by justsomehnguy »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #8

> The second flaw is that a cut reflows the document. A cut and paste is almost always for the purposes of moving text, and yet the instant I cut, the text reflows and I have to locate the point where I want to paste all over again. It's true that cut and paste reflows text twice (once on cut and once on paste), but it does so in the place where your eyes are already looking. Ghost cut reflows only once (on paste), b…

Even if it was 2GB of some data? Even if you run low on memory?

TFA and comments are clearly a solution is search of the problem.

Re: Ghost Cut – Or why Cut and Paste is broken everywhere

#39

Post by jubilanti »

sharkjacobs wrote: post #36
Mogzol wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cut, undo, ..., undo, and paste multiple times a day. Why would you cut + undo as opposed to just copy? Are they not the same operation at that point?

I often cut + undo because seeing the cut is feedback which tells me the operation successfully put the content into clipboard. This is not always a guarantee especially in web apps, and sometimes I just have focus on the wrong window.

Have you used a clipboard manager? There are tons that you can configure with notifications and indicators, so you don't have to that.

Re: Ghost Cut – Or why Cut and Paste is broken everywhere

#40

Post by delecti »

This is an interesting perspective I had never really thought about, and I like the proposed new action, but I don't really want it in lieu of how cut/paste currently works.

In my mental model (which is also how OSs work, though not necessarily how things ought work), the clipboard exists at the OS level, and undo/redo act on the application level. I don't find it to be unexpected or undesirable that doing Ctrl+X,V,Z,Z results in the application returning to its original state but the clipboard ending up being modified.

All that said, I appreciate that this interrogated my mental model a bit.

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