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Purging George Orwell's books misses what drives the political right

theloop.ecpr.eu

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Re: Purging George Orwell's books misses what drives the political right

#31

Orwell's work was peak english literary culture, and what they call criticim and theory are really just a way to dissolve meaning and kill culture by preventing it from persisting as coherent meaning in time. It's an unmooring and uprooting, and it does not produce anything anyone actually desires other than a set of shibboleths for a conspiracy to destroy a culture and rule over its ashes. There is no political-righ…

Very well put.

> it means nothing. Specifically, it uses ideology to assign or project an othering counter-ideology on its enemies to manage them with further criticism. It's mesmerist gibberish all the way down.

This exactly, I hope for opportunities to repeat as much.

Re: Purging George Orwell's books misses what drives the political right

#32
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read what Asimov says in his review, the whole idea is fundamentally absurd when you think about it for even a second.

Asimov seems to have missed that the book does not claim that everyone is being watched at all times, but that everyone could be watched at any time, in any place, and that they have no way to know for sure if they are at any given moment. Therefore, they have to behave as if they are under surveillance at all times, just in case. It’s a very effective and practical means of control. See the famous panopticon concept…

[flagged]

Re: Purging George Orwell's books misses what drives the political right

#33
post #21

Sometimes I find myself wondering what "thinking" even means. Someone proposes a frame, and then people who buy into that frame rally around it and work to reinforce it. Is that really thinking? I keep coming back to this article's whole framing around the "culture war." Maybe it's because I'm not sharp enough to fully follow what smart people are saying, but this piece feels less like thinking and more like its argu…

> Forces like MAGA are fundamentally rooted in the Bible Belt. Their lives are bound up with religious community, and they become right wing based on those values.

I think this is very clearly not the case. MAGA acts in direct opposition to christian values and Trump's actions demonstrate that he proudly rejects the teachings of Jesus. Whatever it is that attracts Christians to MAGA it isn't their religion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ2L-R8NgrA

Re: Purging George Orwell's books misses what drives the political right

#34
post #3

[flagged]

> and the technology is nonsensical like having humans watch every citizen on camera instead of just using computers I think our current world proves that being watched by humans hits people in a way that being monitored by computers doesn't. Remember those "Surveillance Camera Man" videos? You can see countless examples online of people freaking out at a human engaging in public photography because they filmed them…

Because one scenario is more directly tied to potential (undesirable) uses of the photos, and more obviously doing something. If people saw consequences resulting from security cameras, they would pay more mind to them. People aren’t ignoring a security camera in a bathroom.

Re: Purging George Orwell's books misses what drives the political right

#36
post #21

Sometimes I find myself wondering what "thinking" even means. Someone proposes a frame, and then people who buy into that frame rally around it and work to reinforce it. Is that really thinking? I keep coming back to this article's whole framing around the "culture war." Maybe it's because I'm not sharp enough to fully follow what smart people are saying, but this piece feels less like thinking and more like its argu…

> Forces like MAGA are fundamentally rooted in the Bible Belt. Their lives are bound up with religious community, and they become right wing based on those values. I think this is very clearly not the case. MAGA acts in direct opposition to christian values and Trump's actions demonstrate that he proudly rejects the teachings of Jesus. Whatever it is that attracts Christians to MAGA it isn't their religion. https://w…

>MAGA acts in direct opposition to christian values

I agree with what you're saying, but personally, I think this is what the corruption of the Christian faith community looks like. Church communities may not actually take Jesus's teachings all that seriously, but they have Christian broadcasting, schools, the historical view that America is a Christian nation, and a sense of crisis about certain progressive ideas like abortion and such. At this point, I think Trump comes across not so much as a messiah but more as a kind of "warrior" for them. He has moral flaws, but he fights against the forces that are attacking us. In other words, the role of group protector takes priority over personal piety.

Historically speaking, whether a form of religion survives isn't determined solely by how pure it is, is it? In the end, it comes down to what kind of explanation it offers for the anxieties of life. First of all, I want to make it clear that I have absolutely no intention of dismissing your Christian faith. I want to emphasize again that I agree with you that they are violating Christian values, and that devout believers like you are the ones suffering the consequences.

Every time real world communism fails, people say "that wasn't true communism." And every time Christian communities repeatedly support political forces that go against the teachings of Jesus, people say "it's not because of the religion." If we keep doing that, we end up arbitrarily severing the relationship between ideology and reality. Just as we call the state of the modern world the corruption of capitalism, I think the MAGA movement shows what happens when a Christian community follows the wrong shepherd.

First of all, I'm sorry if I unintentionally attacked your faith. But I also respect Jesus. He was a remarkable person. It's just that, as you know, I'm criticizing the act of leaving a stain on his name.

Re: Purging George Orwell's books misses what drives the political right

#37
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Forces like MAGA are fundamentally rooted in the Bible Belt. Their lives are bound up with religious community, and they become right wing based on those values. I think this is very clearly not the case. MAGA acts in direct opposition to christian values and Trump's actions demonstrate that he proudly rejects the teachings of Jesus. Whatever it is that attracts Christians to MAGA it isn't their religion. https://w…

>MAGA acts in direct opposition to christian values I agree with what you're saying, but personally, I think this is what the corruption of the Christian faith community looks like. Church communities may not actually take Jesus's teachings all that seriously, but they have Christian broadcasting, schools, the historical view that America is a Christian nation, and a sense of crisis about certain progressive ideas li…

I should have been more clear. I myself am not Christian, but I did grow up in a Christian household and have studied the faith. I think there is a worrying amount of idolatry in MAGA, but I'd agree that Christian nationalism plays a huge part (as does Christofascism).

While ultimately Christianity is whatever its followers say it is, I think it's still worth calling attention to the clear contradictions. Not only out of acknowledgement/courtesy to those who really do try to follow the bible's teachings, but also on the off chance that it causes some MAGA supporter enough cognitive dissonance that they're forced to really think about what it is they've been supporting.

Re: Purging George Orwell's books misses what drives the political right

#38
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and the technology is nonsensical like having humans watch every citizen on camera instead of just using computers I think our current world proves that being watched by humans hits people in a way that being monitored by computers doesn't. Remember those "Surveillance Camera Man" videos? You can see countless examples online of people freaking out at a human engaging in public photography because they filmed them…

Because one scenario is more directly tied to potential (undesirable) uses of the photos, and more obviously doing something . If people saw consequences resulting from security cameras, they would pay more mind to them. People aren’t ignoring a security camera in a bathroom.

I mean, when it comes to things like ring/nest cameras and ALPRs everybody is pretty upfront about the fact that all the footage they collect is going to be used against you in one way or another. It's pretty hard to get a more direct tie to potential (undesirable) uses. Amazon has made headlines after being sued for giving employees and contractors "unfettered" access to personal videos, and for allowing contractors to listen to people having sex, and for giving police access to the feeds without consent, but people are still buying them up and using them.

A street photographer is a much smaller threat. What's the worst some random person on a public street can do with your photograph? Compare that with the harm that can be done by a massive corporation with billions at their disposal who has been building a dossier on you for decades and who records you 24/7 and is determined to use that data in any way that makes them profit regardless of what you want or what the law says.

Re: Purging George Orwell's books misses what drives the political right

#39

Somewhat meta: this is perhaps the most fertile ground for an online flamewar I've ever seen. It's got something for everyone. Any ideology I can think of could be applied both for and against with equal ferocity.

Hey, as long as the masses are looking to the left and the right for their enemies, rather than up, that's what's desired.

Yes, THIS!!!!!!

Re: Purging George Orwell's books misses what drives the political right

#40
post #30

Reminds me of an observation made when they removed Maus from a library in Tennessee I think it was: "these people want a kinder gentler Holocaust." It's totally idiotic the state we have reached, with an absolutely equal number of stupid people on the left and the right.

I have come to the same conclusion. Not sure how we pull people towards the center.

I am sad to say it but I am not sure it is possible in the short term. It seems that there is a taste for conflict in the air and we are cruising towards another world-level spasm of violence before we can return to some semblance of sanity.
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