I feel like ActiveRecord has none of these problems, but I also feel some strong confirmation bias.
Can anyone that has used ActiveRecord share their opinion?
What ORMs have taught me: just learn SQL (2014)
31–40 of 354 posts
Re: What ORMs have taught me: just learn SQL (2014)
#322014: people respond with indignance that they should have to learn SQL now that there's a shortcut 2026: people respond with indignance that they should have to learn anything now that there's a shortcut
I like SQL. I enjoy writing SQL. I find ORMs produce crap SQL. But the current shortcut du jour is pretty damn good at writing SQL.
While I do enjoy the Django ORM, for many queries SQL is just better. It's almost as if it was designed for querying database.
Once you hit a certain level of complexity in your queries, you're better of with SQL. It's not that you can't do the query in the ORMs, but you're then looking at learning their special query language and those are never better nor easier to understand than just SQL. Those ORM query languages certainly aren't transferable across ORMs, but SQL frequently is. If you can query MariaDB with SQL, you can query SQLServer and PostgreSQL. The same can't be said for e.g. Django vs. Hibernate.
For the "give me all the entries, with this one property" ORMs a much quicker and easier to work with. Once you start needing to use subselect, multiple joins, weird ranges or constructing object with data from across tables, I'd rather just write the SQL myself.
Re: What ORMs have taught me: just learn SQL (2014)
#33One nice thing about the rise of ORMs back in the day was it broke the stranglehold our traditional DBAs had on the data tier. I respected them and their skills, but in a product org it was really difficult to have a separate group that refused to participate in planning and wanted to design everything up front, optimize based on their performance assumptions, and then who would argue with devs when we'd need to do p…
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Re: What ORMs have taught me: just learn SQL (2014)
#34ORMs have their place but they are leaky as hell. RDMSs are very diverse, have different languages, and require different optimisation techniques.
ORMs that try to paper over all the differences fail miserably. They become super complicated and generally produce crap SQL.
ORMs also tend to oversimplify database design. They are just tables with primary keys, right? Who needs indices? Who needs to think about collation? God forbid anyone mentions physical organisation of the data!
Having said this, I do use a very small subset of SQLAlchemy (the bits I understand) in data pipelines.
Re: What ORMs have taught me: just learn SQL (2014)
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Folks who dislike ORMs seem to have this false dichotomy that "the ORM _must_ be used for all queries", which is a self-imposed/unpractical restriction my experience is the exact opposite. People who love and advocate the merits of ORM insist that everything be executed through ORM because it introduces too much complexity for them to blend handwritten SQL with the ORM generated queries
I've written/worked on several ORMs from scratch. ORMs are the industry standard. When I see posts like this I simply can't take them seriously. All they are saying is "I won't be a team player" and "I don't actually understand the subject matter". The reality is at a certain scale there's an entire orm team that optimizes everything. But even when there's no team involved there's no way you can write anything more o…
What optimizations are you making here when at the end of the day performance is dictated by the schema, the query planner and the network?
Re: What ORMs have taught me: just learn SQL (2014)
#36I'm admittedly an ORM apologist [1], but a few of his points articulated as "deal breakers" aren't that bad imo: - "the pernicious use of foreign keys [...] links between classes are [...] foreign keys" ==> that just sounds like schema normalization, which is usually a good thing? - "bending over backwards [...] to generate SQL that runs efficiently" ==> the huge majority of ORM-driven queries are "select * from tabl…
I have seen many ORM enjoyers argue the point about “you can just use SQL!” but I have never once seen an ORM enjoyer allow it, much less do it themselves in an actual codebase. They will time and time again prefer you write 100 lines of Typescript/Python for what could be achieved with 15 lines of SQL.
The reason given to use raw SQL is for the performance not the perceived code clarity.
Re: What ORMs have taught me: just learn SQL (2014)
#37I'm admittedly an ORM apologist [1], but a few of his points articulated as "deal breakers" aren't that bad imo: - "the pernicious use of foreign keys [...] links between classes are [...] foreign keys" ==> that just sounds like schema normalization, which is usually a good thing? - "bending over backwards [...] to generate SQL that runs efficiently" ==> the huge majority of ORM-driven queries are "select * from tabl…
I have seen many ORM enjoyers argue the point about “you can just use SQL!” but I have never once seen an ORM enjoyer allow it, much less do it themselves in an actual codebase. They will time and time again prefer you write 100 lines of Typescript/Python for what could be achieved with 15 lines of SQL.
To make matters worse, most of the time I've successfully argued a project to just use SQL instead of an ORM, what has happened is that people over time built a home rolled ORM in the development language.
It's like people can't just let go.
Re: What ORMs have taught me: just learn SQL (2014)
#38The big problem is that raw SQL has pretty bad type inference and linting support in most editors. A query builder can still give you a lot of type safety benefits.
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It's not that different. I'd rather have a different way to do UPSERTs or a different window function here and there [1] than figure out every ORM's join syntax or its sneaky ways to SELECT N+1 me into oblivion.
[1] LLMs make these very easy to handle.
Re: What ORMs have taught me: just learn SQL (2014)
#39Re: What ORMs have taught me: just learn SQL (2014)
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have seen many ORM enjoyers argue the point about “you can just use SQL!” but I have never once seen an ORM enjoyer allow it, much less do it themselves in an actual codebase. They will time and time again prefer you write 100 lines of Typescript/Python for what could be achieved with 15 lines of SQL.
The reason given to use raw SQL is for the performance not the perceived code clarity.
I’m not sure why you thought I meant code clarity and not performance? It’s clear in all cases the correct SQL query will be more performant.
Confused at what you’re evening trying to say here. Are you suggesting that 100 lines of application layer code is easier to understand than 15 lines of SQL?