Earlier quoted context omitted.
When a good's supply is constrained, it becomes a store of value. See: gold. Strangely enough, if housing got built in response to price increases, there would likely be less unused housing, because it would be seen less as a way to store capital.
When property taxes are higher housing is built more densely. This is because the store of value quickly becomes a millstone around the owner's neck if it isnt being used efficiently. That's a feature if you want a healthy city and a bug if you're one of the ultra wealthy. The UK is a bit like San Francisco in this respect. There are no property taxes, just something called a council tax (which is basically a poll ta…
International investment and local rules push prices up faster than supply
31–40 of 65 posts
Re: International investment and local rules push prices up faster than supply
#32Everybody knows why, but people are desperately looking for scapegoats because the truth is too uncomfortable.
The people to blame can easily be found among your own family and friends. It might even be you yourself. It is probably your parents.
Everybody who works for a living has relatives who have become wealthy by real estate value appreciation. If they're your parents or grandparents, they most probably earn as much yearly from real estate appreciation doing nothing as you do by working full time and being fully taxed for your hard labour.
If they're your uncle and aunt who are still working, then they have a completely different life from a renter working full time, even if it's the same job. Your money as a renter is gone into a black hole, while their money goes into paying off their lucrative real estate or into a very comfortable life if it's already paid off. Unless they are ambitious, they will stay working for whatever salary, keeping salaries from growing. Because they need the stable income. They have no reason to put any effort into a career, since that same effort pays much more being put into real estate.
Outside of the USA any full time working expert in his field can never earn as much per hour in wages in any job as he will earn in real estate value increase by doing home renovations - even if he has no skills in home renovations. Even if he is the leading expert in his field in his nation.
People will look for scapegoats; billionaires, foreign investors, expats. There are dozens of countries with no billionaires, no foreign investments and no rich expats who have a housing crisis. You know that billionaires aren't the problem.
If you have a large percentage of your population who do not work, or who work pretend jobs, or who work real jobs but just at part of their capacity, then it's no surprise that the rest of the population has to work hard to compensate for them. Everything around us is the result of hard work, and if somebody is living comfortably without working that means somebody else is providing for them. Food on their plate doesn't come from the job they worked 30 years ago. It comes from somebody working today. The same for everything.
Until people start admitting what's going on, the problem won't be solved. It's a deliberately created problem by tying the money supply to housing as an effort to decrease the population. Now we're seeing population collapse and total destruction of the industrialized world for the limitless greed of the current old generation. The near future will be very different than what people now are used to. We're already seeing changes and should talk about them instead of pretending and telling lies.
Re: International investment and local rules push prices up faster than supply
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's partly the effect of prop 13. When land (or its proxy, property) is detaxed then property becomes a valuable commodity to hoard and guard the value of jealously. So, it attracts the foreign investors looking for stores of value and encourages NIMBYism. If the tax bill of properties in high value locations went up with land value then it would encourage people to stop hoarding and to sell up and have their prop…
> So, it attracts the foreign investors looking for stores of value and encourages NIMBYism. This doesn't make a lot of sense for two reasons. The first is that real estate is more the exception than the rule in being subject to property tax to begin with. If foreign investors want a store of value that minimizes "property tax" then they could just buy stocks or bonds etc. Which is why "foreign investors" are a red h…
This is exactly the point. If property taxes were higher that flow of capital wouldn't seek store-of-value assets which monopolize valuable land and deprive ordinary people of somewhere to live.
>foreign investors" are a red herring that pundits keep bringing up because it's clickbait or because they want a scapegoat
More like the reverse is ardent defense of the interests of the super wealthy.
They channel their media networks towards scapegoating immigrants instead. Or AI. Or selfish boomers. Or any number of other things which aren't really the problem and most importantly aren't them.
>The second is that if you have a place where taxes are lower than other places, that's the place people should be lobbying to build things
People want to build things because they are useful. People will NIMBY the fuck out of that if it affects the value of their property which it does, disproportionately if property taxes are low.
This is how San Francisco ruined itself - with precisely that attitude of "lower taxes = better"
Re: International investment and local rules push prices up faster than supply
#34Awful headline and I doubt it's what the author would have chosen, given that her comments are much more to do with supply: > “In San Francisco, demand is reflected in increased prices,” she says. “In Charlotte, demand is reflected in increased quantities.” > “A big takeaway is that cities are in control of a big portion of their supply sensitivity,” Gorback says. “It’s cities that control zoning. It’s cities that co…
“”” We estimate price elasticities of housing supply for U.S. cities by examining the impact of foreign purchases on housing prices and quantities. After other countries introduced foreign-buyer taxes beginning in 2011, both house prices and quantities increased more in locations with high foreign-born populations. A 1% increase in global capital inflows, instrumented with tax policy changes scaled by immigrant exposure, increased prices and quantities by 3% and 0.5%, respectively, over 2011–2018. We combine these estimates to construct new local supply elasticities. Compared to prior estimates, our elasticities are more inelastic and change cities’ relative rankings. “””
So it would seem the focus of the research was very much foreign investment in housing.
Re: International investment and local rules push prices up faster than supply
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
When property taxes are higher housing is built more densely. This is because the store of value quickly becomes a millstone around the owner's neck if it isnt being used efficiently. That's a feature if you want a healthy city and a bug if you're one of the ultra wealthy. The UK is a bit like San Francisco in this respect. There are no property taxes, just something called a council tax (which is basically a poll ta…
imo The big key here is zoning. I live in a city where they actively work against people who want to build out their properties and create more density. The property taxes are sky high, but the city actively works against your affording them. It’s terrible.
Re: International investment and local rules push prices up faster than supply
#36Awful headline and I doubt it's what the author would have chosen, given that her comments are much more to do with supply: > “In San Francisco, demand is reflected in increased prices,” she says. “In Charlotte, demand is reflected in increased quantities.” > “A big takeaway is that cities are in control of a big portion of their supply sensitivity,” Gorback says. “It’s cities that control zoning. It’s cities that co…
It's kind of insane that you look at a city like San Francisco that's on a tiny bit of land in a desirable location and they absolutely refuse to build up. I get that their Victorian houses are pretty, but they're only about a 100 years old and they are now crammed full of people and cars. It's too young of a city to be sycophantically in love with its past self.
I’m in Europe and here if people suggested to tear down some art noveau buildings because they’re just 100-150 years old… I’d be absolutely furious. Don’t get me started on buildings from 200 or 300 years ago.
With US having much less old buildings, I totally get why people want to preserve such buildings.
Re: International investment and local rules push prices up faster than supply
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's kind of insane that you look at a city like San Francisco that's on a tiny bit of land in a desirable location and they absolutely refuse to build up. I get that their Victorian houses are pretty, but they're only about a 100 years old and they are now crammed full of people and cars. It's too young of a city to be sycophantically in love with its past self.
Where do you draw a line? 100 years? 200? 500? Especially if buildings age nicely and they’re still considered good-looking. I’m in Europe and here if people suggested to tear down some art noveau buildings because they’re just 100-150 years old… I’d be absolutely furious. Don’t get me started on buildings from 200 or 300 years ago. With US having much less old buildings, I totally get why people want to preserve suc…
Re: International investment and local rules push prices up faster than supply
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's kind of insane that you look at a city like San Francisco that's on a tiny bit of land in a desirable location and they absolutely refuse to build up. I get that their Victorian houses are pretty, but they're only about a 100 years old and they are now crammed full of people and cars. It's too young of a city to be sycophantically in love with its past self.
Where do you draw a line? 100 years? 200? 500? Especially if buildings age nicely and they’re still considered good-looking. I’m in Europe and here if people suggested to tear down some art noveau buildings because they’re just 100-150 years old… I’d be absolutely furious. Don’t get me started on buildings from 200 or 300 years ago. With US having much less old buildings, I totally get why people want to preserve suc…
To directly answer your question about where to draw the line a simple heuristic is to leave public buildings alone. This can even include a privately owned shop that is accessible to the public. They are part of the cities culture. Private homes in the other hand shouldn't be protected.
Re: International investment and local rules push prices up faster than supply
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
> So, it attracts the foreign investors looking for stores of value and encourages NIMBYism. This doesn't make a lot of sense for two reasons. The first is that real estate is more the exception than the rule in being subject to property tax to begin with. If foreign investors want a store of value that minimizes "property tax" then they could just buy stocks or bonds etc. Which is why "foreign investors" are a red h…
>The first is that real estate is more the exception than the rule in being subject to property tax to begin with. If foreign investors want a store of value that minimizes "property tax" then they could just buy stocks or bonds etc This is exactly the point. If property taxes were higher that flow of capital wouldn't seek store-of-value assets which monopolize valuable land and deprive ordinary people of somewhere t…
Only they still would, because the higher property taxes would deter new construction until scarcity increases rents to the level that investment gets back over the threshold of profitability. And then investors are still there and what you've really done is cause rents to increase to the level that allows landlords to use it to pay the higher property tax.
> They channel their media networks towards scapegoating immigrants instead. Or AI. Or selfish boomers. Or any number of other things which aren't really the problem and most importantly aren't them.
Are "selfish boomers" not the problem in this case? Who are the ones lobbying for NIMBY zoning rules?
> This is how San Francisco ruined itself - with precisely that attitude of "lower taxes = better"
The big problem with prop 13 isn't that it lowers taxes, it's that it disproportionately raises them if you build anything new on your land or sell it to anyone who wants to.
Re: International investment and local rules push prices up faster than supply
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
Where do you draw a line? 100 years? 200? 500? Especially if buildings age nicely and they’re still considered good-looking. I’m in Europe and here if people suggested to tear down some art noveau buildings because they’re just 100-150 years old… I’d be absolutely furious. Don’t get me started on buildings from 200 or 300 years ago. With US having much less old buildings, I totally get why people want to preserve suc…
I'm pretty sure paris looked looked nothing like now 100 years ago. Some other buildings had to come down to put up that art noveau building. I'm pretty sure someone would have been complaining about how that changes the character of the city they grew up in. To directly answer your question about where to draw the line a simple heuristic is to leave public buildings alone. This can even include a privately owned sho…
Exemptions like you suggest would just open the gates for fancy corruption schemes. Here the public is okay-ish about historical buildings changes hands specifically because of strict rules.
A lot of public institutions are now moving from historical buildings to new buildings in outskirts because old buildings are expensive to maintain and not flexible enough for modern office working. And those historical buildings frequently get renovated (or, sometimes, reverted to) apartments. And the public is fine in general.
Excuse me if I’m wrong, but most of business activity is already not in SF. But people love living in SF for it’s charm. If you destroy the charm for the sake of lowering prices… why would people pick SF-proper instead of same boring buildings outside of the peninsula?